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TOPIC: CBN sprays on waterstones

Re:Re: CBN sprays on waterstones 11 months 2 days ago #13659

  • razoredgeknives
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Wow... I heard cliff stamp mention this but didn't know how true it was... I will be following with interest!
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Re:Re: CBN sprays on waterstones 11 months 2 days ago #13660

  • LeoBarr
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I have not been saying this is wrong or right merely proposing discussion .
I could open it further to say what about using it on ceramics ?
My apologies for the incorrect labelling of the vid.
The text above in my last post is cut and pasted from Ken on knife forums.
We are dealing with news steels more and more and with that evolves sharpening strategies and I reiterate I proposed it as a question on the forum for those if any who have either tried it or feel there isa viable reason to try it .
I recall Ben Dale saying that in his opinion we should only use diamond stones on ceramics since the steel is softer than diamonds they dislodge from there medium and get stuck in the steel rendering a diamond sharpener useless after fifty or sixty uses and yet DMT | Atoma | & WE use them to name but a few brands .
So sharpening evolves along with the materials been sharpened
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Re:Re: CBN sprays on waterstones 11 months 2 days ago #13662

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this video is the one I was referring to... seems to have the same experience. note that around 11:20 he shows a stone that he tried an m4 blade and a 10v blade on. You can see where the stone did abrade the 10v but did not the m4.

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CBN sprays on waterstones 11 months 2 days ago #13666

  • wickededge
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One thing about Ken's perspective is that it's entirely based on waterstones and their ability to abrade these harder, more abrasion resistant metals. I've sharpened a lot of REX 121, ZDP-189 and various Hitachi steels with little more effort than our regular fare of 3xxV series steels, D2, CPM154, ATS-34 etc... I was really surprised to discover how quickly the diamond plates plowed through the REX 121 and other steels. So with our diamond plates in the mix, the metal removal portion of sharpening isn't an issue. The question then would seem to be whether adding the harder abrasives to the waterstones in the polishing phase would speed the process of scratch removal. I'd be inclined to start around 2k or so and use like size CBN or diamond particles to see if there was a noticeable benefit.
--Clay Allison
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CBN sprays on waterstones 11 months 2 days ago #13671

  • PhilipPasteur
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Leo,
Don't mind me... just thinking out loud... though I guess my writing style can be direct.
After reading what Clay said, and Kens entire post, the concept does make some sense.
Ken, as usual, makes a very convincing argument for his case.

Until I know more, I would still hate to do this on my only set of Chosera stones.

The part about the synthetics removing metal around the hard carbides certainly might be a concern where those carbides are in high concentration. This could be true even during the polishing phase.

That being said, I have recently sharpened some K390 and S110V and over time a bunch of ZDP 189. Not Rex 121, but high vanadium content just the same. It takes longer to polish, but at the levels that I can test or see, there have been no problems at the edge in only using synthetic water stones for these..
Phil

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CBN sprays on waterstones 11 months 2 days ago #13672

  • wickededge
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Phil,

Thanks for drawing attention to the section on the carbides. I guess I had an ADD moment while reading it through the first time and didn't key into this:
Now when you have carbides harder than the surrounding steel matrix, the softer abrasives grind away on the surrounding matrix until the carbides are no longer supported and fall out from lack of support. I like to use the analogy of a chocolate chip cookie with the carbides being the chips and the surrounding steel being the dough. So when the dough gets worn away the chips fall out.

Seeing this effect isn't possible w/ my optics; we'd need use of an SEM to verify whether carbides are actually falling out. All of it makes me wonder a bit... Wouldn't the softer matrix still wear away more quickly with a harder abrasive? What if any difference does the particle size make when it comes to this issue?

I'll work on my REX 121 blade a little and see what shows up under the scope.
--Clay Allison
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CBN sprays on waterstones 11 months 2 days ago #13673

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I did try this technique with my 3k, 5k and 10k stones. I started with the stones dry, sprayed the CBN and used the moisture of the spray to create my mud while rubbing the stones together. Seemed a sensible way to get started. I used the following combos: 3k/.75um, 5k/.5um, 10/.25um. The mud developed really quickly and easily. I typically don't get much mud with the 5k and 10k stones and I was pleased to see that more formed and more easily using the CBN sprays. I imagine that the harder CBN particles help to break down the waterstone grits so you get a finer mud more quickly but I don't have a way to test that theory. I can't speak about results yet. I'll have to devise some tests to see if I can spot any differences in results etc, especially with harder steels.
--Clay Allison
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CBN sprays on waterstones 11 months 2 days ago #13676

  • LeoBarr
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I think like most of us we- you -I _plus most of the people on the forum are passionate about sharpening and often can not get the words typed out quickly enough to make a point so yes sometimes I know I certainly write in a forceful manner put us all together in a room and probable the same thing would occur but what magic would prevail the knowledge and experience held by all in the forum would be phenomenal so maintain your passion Philip

Leo
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CBN sprays on waterstones 11 months 2 days ago #13678

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Do you have a picture of you REX121 I have seen one on a forum and Rex sounds a suitable beastly name for such it is a sort of Katana styled folder the one I have seem with a sort of brut forge look to it so only the thinning bevels shine.
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CBN sprays on waterstones 11 months 2 days ago #13679

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I was looking for something that talked about carbide sizes. I found a paper on forming metals that used CPM 15V, CPM S30V and K190 steel and measured the size of carbides. Surprisingly they were found to be between 1 and 5 microns. There are SEM images with a 10 micron scale on them and individual carbides seem to be visible.

Wouldn't this be something that could be displayed at 2500X ?
In the initial structures of the supplied steels there were differences in morphology and scatter of carbides (fig. 1). The carbides of steel CPM 15V had a mainly polyhedral character with a size of 1-3 μm. The finest carbides were found in steel CPM S30V which has a high content of chromium. On the contrary in the steel K190 there was a sharp morphology of carbides, the carbides size was inhomogeneous between 1 and 5 μm and these carbides can be several times bigger than the rest of the carbides. Thanks to the linear chemical analyses EDX it was found that the carbides of CPM S30V are mainly made from vanadium but the steels CPM 15V and K190 have chromium carbides(fig. 1).
It get pretty esoteric from there though.



www.comat.cz/files/proceedings/11/reports/1207.pdf
Phil

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