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TOPIC: Why water stones?

Re: Why water stones? 1 year 8 months ago #8485

  • PhilipPasteur
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Geocyclist wrote:
I was following this almost. What is the difference between lapping and not lapping (what ever "not lapping" is called)?

When you talk about starting with mud, exactly what does this mean? Do you wash the stone off or just quick making more?

I start the coarse grit choseras by making mud first, rubbing the together, this lasts until the first wetting. After that it just starts to dissipate, past the 2nd or 3rd wetting it's gone. By wetting I mean when the stones are still moist I squirt about 4 drops of water to keep them wet.

I am not sure how Blunt Cut is using the word lapping. I am pretty sure it is not in the way that we typically talk about lapping to flatten a stone (or anything else), but maybe I am missing something.

On the coarser stones, up to 1000 grit, or sometimes when I want more cutting power from it, the 2000 grit Chosera, I not only rub the stones together uner running water, but once the angles are set I use some relatively high pressure fast perpindicular strokes on the entire blade for a few minutes. This gets a fast start on removing scratches from the previous grit AND it builds a nice bit of mud. As I go to the sweeping strokes, I stop about every 20 to 25 strokes and ad a drop or two of water and mix it with the remaining mud and swarf while spreading it accross the whole stone. There is still mud on the stone after 100 strokes...if you do not put so much water on the stone that it all drips off. As you are getting close to removing the scratches from the previous grit, you might even find that you want to clean the stones before proceeding to do another 25 or so strokes, so that you can obtain the finest possible finish from them.

Phil

BTW Blunt Cut, here is an article that talks about lapping in the terms that define it as I use the word. Is this what you are talking about whan you write "lapping"? Just trying to define terms so that we all understand the terms in the same way.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapping
Phil

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Last Edit: 1 year 8 months ago by PhilipPasteur.
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 8 months ago #8486

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BluntCut wrote:
PhilipPasteur wrote:


Hi Phil,

A moderate amt of mud in conjunction with fixed abrasives indeed would abrade & polish faster. My answer was for mud only (i.e. only loose abrasives), thus it's lapping not? For a same grit, lapping yield finer finishes - just like stropping is one directional lapping. I don't think we disagree, just viewing this matter at a different angle.

I missed this before I wwrote the above. I guess that I was confused because we started talking about using mud on waterstones while sharpening. Certainly loose abrasives can be used for lapping. I have a glass plate with a variety of abrasives that I sprinkle on the glass for lapping different items. I have used this method for some of my bench stones, but it is pretty messy. However with the proper abrasive and a very flat surface, and a significant amount of effort, the results are outstanding. Diamond plates make this much easier, but way more expensive. I have not figured out a way to use loose abrasives for sharpening though. Anyway, now I understand how lapping got into the conversation.
Phil
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 8 months ago #8487

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* !!! THANK YOU !!! *

For all of your work, time and information that all of you put into the WE Forum.
- James
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 8 months ago #8488

  • leomitch
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I will add my thanks to those who are participating in this most instructive back and forth. This is the kind of thread that adds to the knowledge of everyone. The experiences of the few is important to the many! Thanks to all who are participating and please continue. I am learning a lot here that will improve my sharpening skills.

Cheers
Leo
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Gibbs rule number 9

Leo James Mitchell
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 8 months ago #8492

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I've used one of the ceramic stones to flatten/level/lap my 8k super stone. I then wondered about using the ceramic with the 8K's mud on it. I know there is some technique out there that is similar in idea.

Anyone done this?
Any possible harm to the ceramic?
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 8 months ago #8495

  • KenBuzbee
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Mikedoh wrote:
Anyone done this?
Any possible harm to the ceramic?

I haven't but I doubt you'll hurt anything.

Ken
玉鋼
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 8 months ago #8497

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Mikedoh wrote:
I've used one of the ceramic stones to flatten/level/lap my 8k super stone. I then wondered about using the ceramic with the 8K's mud on it. I know there is some technique out there that is similar in idea.

Anyone done this?
Any possible harm to the ceramic?

I haven't, mostly because I do not have the 8K stone. What would you be hoping to get out of the combination?
Which one of the ceramics are you talking about?

Phil
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 8 months ago #8498

  • Mikedoh
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I think it was the 1200 ceramic.
Since It made some mud, I thought maybe it could be used (as opposed to washed off and wasted) and refine the edge more than the 1200 alone.
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 8 months ago #8503

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I don't think it would hurt anything... but I also don't think it would last long.
Heck, give it a try and see what you think...

Phil
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 8 months ago #8532

  • jendeindustries
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I think we need a quick clarification of the differences between mud, swarf, and slurry because they do produce different results.

MUD: aka Paste, is the resulting breakdown of the abrasive medium, metal particles, and/or binder that produces a finer/less invasive scratch pattern then the advertised grit. It is advantageous when using finer stones, but may not be the most wanted at lower grits. Also, there is a degree of rounding of the edge usually associated with using mud/paste because the more you use it, the finer the mud gets (to a point), but the stone medium will continue to wear with more use - how much depends on the stone.

SLURRY: is loose abrasive on the surface of a stone that is most associated with adding cutting power to a stone, but is not always the case. We mostly see diamond plates that are coarser than the stone itself to create the slurry, which is the most aggressive because it not only releases the abrasive, but also textures the surface of the stone to have more peaks that abrade more readily than an even surface. (You'll often feel a freshly lapped stone feels really aggressive, but after a few knives, the stone feels like it has less action). Same-stone/grit slurries, are also aggressive, and you can usually play with the concentration to make it more or less aggressive. This type of slurry usually leaves a "deeper" version of the advertised grit because, as mentioned before, mud/paste can form during its use, but the loose abrasives cut deeper than those fixed in the matrix. Lastly, you can use a finer grit slurry on a coarser grit stone for polishing effects, which is often used on Japanese Naturals. Technically, it is used more as a mud, IMO.

SWARF: is the stuff on the stone that impedes the stone from working (or loads it up) - usually the buildup of abraded metal. This is most commonly a problem with hard stones such as Shaptons or ceramics.

These are sometimes tricky definitions, for example, the WEPS ceramics load up, which slows them down while making them finer. If you want it to load up, then it is a paste or mud, but if you don't want it, then it is swarf!

So if you want to use some of the mud from one stone on another, it is all good!
:)
Tom Blodgett
Jende Industries, LLC

My Blog: jendeindustries.wordpress.com
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