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TOPIC: Why water stones?

Re: Why water stones? 1 year 6 months ago #8540

  • PhilipPasteur
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Hey tom,
Wouldn't Mud and Slurry amount to the same thing, just at different stages of concentration of the particles involved? One just has more liquid (usually water of course) in it than the other. The common definition of a slurry is " a thin mixture of water and an insoluable solid". This is pretty equivocal. After all, what it 'thin"? We can form a slurry as you mention, perhaps with diamonds or a nagura... as it and the stone dries it becomes what you define as mud. Slurry it seems, can be a broad range of particle concentrations. So, how do you define the demarcation between the two stages?

I know this is sematics to a degree, but if we are to be able to nail down what is happeing at the edge when using either mud or slurry, isn't it also important to know what we are actually using, according to the definitions.

I am curious because I have seen much written on the subject, but nothing that allows me to know what I should really call what I am seeing on my stones. I can tell the difference in my results, but in the absence of defined terms, I have no accepted way of telling anyone what I was actually doing to get there..

Phil
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 6 months ago #8544

  • jendeindustries
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Very good question, Phillip! B)

When arguing semantics, mud can be considered a "more developed" slurry, but I think it is more a matter of how you use it rather than the proper name, as per my example about loaded up stones being finer.

I had this same thought in the past, and in my experiments, I've noticed differences between pastes and slurries. I did this with a 2K Chosera - first, I started off with a freshly lapped 2K (as usual), and worked it to develop a mud, which then polishes up the bevel to a light mirror on the macro level.

Then, I started a new knife with a freshly lapped stone (the same as usual) and used a 2K Chosera nagura to make a slurry of 2K. The feel of the stone changes - it's more aggressive for sure, and the paste does develop. On the bevel, there is a mirror, but not as clear as without the slurry. also, under the scope, the scratches are not as matte as without a slurry.

On harder abrasives like Aluminum Oxide, being loose from the matrix doesn't mean they readily break down - even though there may be polishing effects from the loosened matrix itself. In the case of more friable abrasives, you can probably eventually work the slurry enough to break down to more of paste (but this will take time and conflicts with my personal sharpening philosophy).

So again, I think it is more important to understand how one intends to use these different terms when they apply them to their sharpening. For example, if someone wants faster action, don't use mud, use slurry; and if one wants cleaner and "truer grit" edges, remove the swarf from the stone. However, if more refinement is wanted without changing stones, then using the paste or allowing the swarf to load the stone will work.
Tom Blodgett
Jende Industries, LLC

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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 6 months ago #8568

  • Geocyclist
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Hey Tom,

Thanks for your detailed write ups. How do you clean swarf off stones (ceramic and water stones)?
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 6 months ago #8570

  • jendeindustries
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I clean swarf off my Choseras and Shaptons with a spray bottle of water. Lapping after or before a session also helps get rid of any embedded swarf.

On the dry ceramics, some warm soapy water may help remove some of the deeper residue rather than just water alone.
Tom Blodgett
Jende Industries, LLC

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Last Edit: 1 year 6 months ago by jendeindustries.
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 6 months ago #8572

  • PhilipPasteur
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Geocyclist wrote:
Hey Tom,

Thanks for your detailed write ups. How do you clean swarf off stones (ceramic and water stones)?

I know that I am not Tom, but I will tell you what I do. I typically do not lap the stones before or after each use. I guess I am not that OCD about this aspect. I always rub the two stones of the same grit together under running water both right before and right after shapening with them. With the waterstones I find that this rubbing and maybe some rubbing with my fingers gets the stones clean enough for me. I then shake all of the water that I can off of thepaddles and stand them on end on a paper towel to dry. Typically I let them dry for a couple of hours before putting thenm back into their individual plasic bags for storage.

I have been using some kind of kitchen cleanser (whatever I have around) on ceramics used for sharpening or ceramic hones for years. That combined with a short bristle stiff brush of the kind that is typically used for cleaning finger nails, removes the bulk of the "swarf" and embedded metal dust. More recently I tried some Barkeepers Friend liquid per one of our members recomendation. I think it does do a slightly better job, in that it seems faster, than the typical "Comet" or generic cleansers. I have also read that Bon Ami cleanser is the choice of some folks. There is not a huge difference in effectiveness among the ones that I have tried.
Applying the cleanser with enough liquid to make a thick slurry, or maybe a mud, and then letting it sit for a minute or two, scrubbing with the brush briskly, then rinsing with lots of running water, seems to do the trick. Just make sure you get rid of all of the grit from the cleanser when rinsing, but you should easily be able to feel when this is done.

I have never gotten the ceramic stones looking brand new, but if there is a performance degradation form the remaining embedded gray stains, it does not seem to be significant. So far, I have not had any of the WEPS cermic stones fall off the handles using this method... but I have only done this a couple of times over the two months or so that I have had them.


Phil
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 6 months ago #8582

  • mark76
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I agree with Philip on the cleaning of the stones. I have also never been able to get the ceramics completely clean again, but well enough for them to work well.

There was another long thread on it, but I cannot find it back quickly.

It appeared that Barkeepers Friend works so well on the ceramics, because it contains oxalic acid. This stuff is also recommended agains rust stains.

In the same thread someone told that he used a much stronger acid (I forgot which one) and he was able to get the ceramic stones completely white again. I intended to try this myself, but never got to it. Strong acids are rather hard to get where I live.
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 6 months ago #8602

  • PhilipPasteur
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This is an excerpt from the Spyderco description of their Sharpmaker, which uses ceramic abrasives:

To clean: scrub stones with a plastic scouring pad and powdered abrasive cleaner, let air-dry.

Sounds familiar.. maybe we are on the right track..

:cheer:
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Last Edit: 1 year 6 months ago by PhilipPasteur.
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 6 months ago #8613

  • Geocyclist
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Thanks to all on answering the cleaning question. Didn't mean to only put it to Tom, just replying to his post. Next time I will make sure to open it up to all. :)
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 6 months ago #8614

  • jendeindustries
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I don't know Phil... It seems to me that you are just as OCD about cleaning your ceramics as a I am about lapping my Choseras! :P
Tom Blodgett
Jende Industries, LLC

My Blog: jendeindustries.wordpress.com
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 6 months ago #8616

  • PhilipPasteur
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welllll..
OK
:)

But, I have used them a couple of dozen times and done the cleaning twice... so almost as OCD..

Phil
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Last Edit: 1 year 6 months ago by PhilipPasteur.
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