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TOPIC: Super and Micro ceramics progression

Re: Super and Micro ceramics progression 1 year 9 months ago #6495

  • LukasPop
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Thank you Phil,

your experiences seem to be very useful :) It looks that I underestimated imporance of different stroping abrasives, but you can't buy Kangaroo and Nanocloth strops and HA and KS diamond sprays in Europe and postage from USA is bloody expensive :(

I can't open your links, can you check it please?
The Microfine coarse is half the grit size of the Fine Superfine ceramic 1.4 micron versus 2.85 microns. When we are getting to this level of grit size, this is significant. It will save time in scratch removal and refine the edge!

I think that grit size comparison between different abrasives is tricky, and I heard several times that the Microfine coarse is coarser than you can deduce from the value 1.4 micron. Also 10K Choseras have grit size 1.74 micron, it is about three time as much as fine Microceramics (0.6 micron), and it doesn't seem that the edge after fine Microceramics are significantly more refined than after 10K Choseras. You have both, so you can confirm :)
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Re: Super and Micro ceramics progression 1 year 9 months ago #6504

  • PhilipPasteur
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wickededgeusa.com/wiki/index.php?title=W...d_Edge_New_User_Info

Above has links and descriptions for all of the things I am posting. Check the New User Info page. It has lots of good info. If you can think of anything else that might fit there... or anywhere on the WIKI, please let us know.

Unfortunately is seems as though when one goes to the WIKI and then to a linked page, then copies the link of that page from the adress bar, it does not work.

Here are the links that I posted and one more

Stock Stone Strop progression, lots of Pics and links to previous posts with good info on the progressions 100 through 600 and diamond pastes. Keep in mind the scale here when you look at some of the other threads. Clay changed cameras at least three times. With the new camera he did a bunch of photos at 800X before getting his unit to go to 2500.

wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_k...=6&id=1824&Itemid=63

This next one is where.. on pages 8 through 10 or so we get into the Kangaroo and Nano cloths with some submicrom sprays and where the table of results that I posted last night is. Everyone immediately wanted those strops. Pretty amazing stuff!!

A theory of how the WE diamond pastes work
www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=c...=5&id=2399&Itemid=63


The next one, well the title says it all. In this one Clay illustrates what I consider to be a convex micro bevel after stropping. I would really like him to do some edge on shots after the stropping. I tend to think that this will show a thin line at the edge of the edge, rather than a rounded surface. I think that, even if the edge were sligthly rounded, it would be a micron range sort of radius, as stropped knives and razors have been shown over and over again to cut some things better after that process. Remember these are at 800X, previous photos have been at either 400X or 525X IIRC.

Ascending Stone Progression at 800x
wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_k...=4555&Itemid=63#4560


Enjoy

Phil
Phil

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Last Edit: 1 year 9 months ago by PhilipPasteur.
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Re: Super and Micro ceramics progression 1 year 9 months ago #6516

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LukasPop wrote:
Thank you Phil,
I think that grit size comparison between different abrasives is tricky, and I heard several times that the Microfine coarse is coarser than you can deduce from the value 1.4 micron. Also 10K Choseras have grit size 1.74 micron, it is about three time as much as fine Microceramics (0.6 micron), and it doesn't seem that the edge after fine Microceramics are significantly more refined than after 10K Choseras. You have both, so you can confirm :)

Lukas,
I could not agree more, and I have said as much here many times(grit is not always just grit).
I read Clay's post about lapping the coarse microfine stones before use. I did that immediately. I know some people were plugging these stones into their rotation after the 1200 ceramics. After lapping with first a coarse DMT plate to flatten them then a fine one to texture the stones. I definitely felt they fit after the 1600 grit Ceramics. He has some photos after lapping that illustrate this well. I found this a bit curious as I think of Ceramic materials as being generally homogenous. Apparently in firing the Ceramic stones there can be effects at the surface that change the properties somewhat.

That said, there are huge differences in stone types at the edge, regardless of them having equivalent grit sizes. The binder of a stone, how fast it releases abrasive, the friability of the abrasive and many other factors come into play. I would not expect the results from something like a Shapton stone to be very close to a ceramic stone of any grit. Ceramics have no binder really and release no abrasives (except maybe when new and the "kiln" layer is being removed :)). In other words they are not much like any manufactured or natural stone. You will see, however, in Clay's pictures using the lapped coarse Mcrofine stone that there is a nice and pretty regular reduction is scratch size moving from the 1600>1200>Coarse MF>Fine MF.

Your original question about getting "improvement" using the Fine MF after the 10K Chosera stone...
I think it is one of those that we need to examine at the microscopic level. I can check it out one day soon to give my impressions based on sharpness tests (which are not all that definitive) but I am limited in what I can see at the edge with the equipment that I have. I would guess that it will be very close. I would say that the edge will (from direct comparison) not be as reflective (read pretty:)) just using the Fine MF, and likely would get a bit duller if it is used after the Chosera. Judging by what people generally call a mirror edge, I am sure it would still fit that description. Of course thsi is speculation based on one knife and no micrographs... As Mark said, this is difficult to answer...until we do some more work on that specific subject.

Phil
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Re: Super and Micro ceramics progression 1 year 9 months ago #6535

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Chris...
thanks.
I needed that. I was actually going to ask the question one day.
The reason I used color was because I couldn't get the quotes to work right (I guess that was obvious to you).

Many forums allow easy multiple quoting. Do you have any neat tricks to do that here?
Or must it be a manual process?

Phil

Billabong wrote:
One for Phil.

When you break up a quote, leave the bracket out here.
The one before the "T". (arrow)


Apologies for the off-topic.
Phil

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Hoping there is that bridge!
I miss you Buddy!
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Re: Super and Micro ceramics progression 1 year 9 months ago #6538

  • Billabong
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Sorry Phil, my experience comes from posting only.
The place I haunt is all hand made by the owner of the site, we are spoilt.

I'm sure the WebMan can tell us what is possible.

I've never shot so many arrows in all directions as I have today. ;)
Or been off-topic so much.
Apologies to all!
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