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TOPIC: Super and Micro ceramics progression

Re: Super and Micro ceramics progression 1 year 9 months ago #6458

  • PhilipPasteur
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LukasPop wrote:
Thank you guys :) Delivery to Czech Republic takes some time :( I will play with different progressions, but it seems that full set of super and microceramic is really overkill....

Well real dependent on how you define overkill. What is your end goal? There are lots of folks that believe that they get the best edge possible for their application using only up to the 100 Diamonds and stropping with 5/3.5 dimond paste. For them uing any of the ceramics is overkill. There are those of us who simply want to get the most refined edge possible on a given blade. We would say that the fine microfine stone is a prep stone for a bunch of stropping, perhaps down to o.025 micron spray in four or five stages. So for these people both sets of ceramics are required and stopping with all of the ceramics and finishing with the fine microfine stones is Underkill.

So, what is your goal? If it is to get a highly refined edge with submicron scratches at the edge, as quickly as possible, the full ceramic progresstion is essential. You may get there after a very large amount of strokes with the microfine stones only. But that is very time consuming. You will never get there with just the Superfine stones.

LukasPop wrote:
Mark, do you think that using Micro fine ceramic after 10K Choseras will improve the edge? All the people here claim that 10K Choseras make superbly sharp and polished edges.

I just got the superfine and microfine stones yesterday. I have been using the diamonds then a Chosera progression. Last night I did a blade using the diamonds 100 through 1000 then the superfine and microfine stones. I had lapped the coarse microfine stone lightly on DMT plates first on the coarse plate then fine. At 100X it seemed to me that there were more scratches remaining and visibly the edge was not quite as bright as the reults that I am used to with the Choseras. Now this does not mean that the knife was not very, very sharp after the Ceramic stones, it was. The chosera stones simply seem to have more of a polishing effect. BTW, when I did this I tried to be consistent with my typical sharpening regime as to number of strokes per grit.

This is not a rap on the ceramics. I can see using them in progressions where very sharp is quite good enough and I can control my OCD. Actually for many applications, just the Superfine stones after the 1000 Diamonds will be more than sufficient. Just check the sharpening database and see how many people feel that a 1000 grit diamond, with maybe a bit of stropping, is the perfect edge of them.

Just as a reference, I have a set of 15K Shaptons. I seldom use them when looking for the most relfective surface because they actually seem to dull the bevel compared to the 10K Chosera stones. If I want more polish, I go to the 12K Naniwa Super Stones. These stones have less abrasive content than the Choseras, but lean towards more polish. I would classify the results using the Microfine fine stones much closer to the Shapton 15K than the any of the Naniwa stones. Tom would undoubtedly say this is a good thing !

Now this is just one knife that happened to be S30V. I don't think S30V polishes nor takes as fine an edge as many other steels. I intend to try this out again with some good old AUS8A or 1095 both of which seem to do better in these areas. Will let you all know what I see.

So the question here is, what do you mean by "improve the edge"?? Both progressions yeild a very sharp knife. What other criteria do you have for edge improvement? If it is the ultimate in edge refinement with no scratches visible at 800X, I would think that you have to go beyond either of these progressions to some submicron stropping materials.

Phil
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Re: Super and Micro ceramics progression 1 year 9 months ago #6459

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Thanks for elaborate answer.
So the question here is, what do you mean by "improve the edge"??
"Improve" means two things for me:
1. "Sharpness" - how well the edge can do some push - cutting tests (push cutting paper, shave hair, whittle hair)
2."Polish" - how clear is mirror reflection from the edge.
Now I use progression 100-1000 diamonds < 1200 and 1600 super ceramics < 5 and 3.5 um leather strops. And I think that each step improves both sharpness and polish.
If it is the ultimate in edge refinement with no scratches visible at 800X, I would think that you have to go beyond either of these progressions to some submicron stropping materials.
Yes, I think that stropping is irreplaceable, and it produces polish unattainable with stones. The sharpness after 3.5 leather strops seems to be also better than after 1600 super ceramics. But strops are soft, and therefore not so "precise" as stones, so stropping can lead to rounding the edge, which reduces sharpness. So I recommend to progress to the finest stone available, and then you will need less strokes with strops.
We would say that the fine microfine stone is a prep stone for a bunch of stropping, perhaps down to o.025 micron spray in four or five stages.
If I look at pictures at Grits Comparison Chart www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=c...31:general&Itemid=46 , I can't say that the edge after 0.25 um diamond spray looks better than after 5 um diamond paste. So It doesn't seem to me that stropping with many different sizes of diamonds pastes and sprays has any visible effect.
So, what is your goal? If it is to get a highly refined edge with submicron scratches at the edge, as quickly as possible, the full ceramic progresstion is essential. You may get there after a very large amount of strokes with the microfine stones only. But that is very time consuming.
It seems that grit sizes of 1200 super, 1600 super and coarse micro are very similar, so I think that using only coarse micro can't take distinctly more time than all of them.

Then I think there are three "similar fine" stones: fine micro ceramics, 10K Choseras and 15K Shaptons. I haven't experience with either, but according other people on this forum it seems to me that:
1. Waterstones have better "feedback" during sharpening
2. Choseras are the most messy, micro the least
3. Choseras produce the best polish, polish of Shaptons and micro ceramics is similar
4. All three stones produce similar sharpness
5. Micro ceramics are the least expensive, then Choseras, then Shaptons (I take 5K + 15 K Shaptons + blank paddles, this combination should be similar to micro ceramics set)
So micro ceramics look quite fine for me, but it depends what your preferences are.

This is how I understand different abrasives now :)
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Re: Super and Micro ceramics progression 1 year 9 months ago #6461

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Not to complicate an already somewhat complicated topic, there is at least one other set of dynamics you can add which may not be easily quantifiable. That is the amount of pressure and stroke dynamics such as direction you drag the stone over the metal and of course how many strokes per stone.

I guess that is why knife sharpening is frequently referred to as an art.
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Re: Super and Micro ceramics progression 1 year 9 months ago #6464

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Scott Sherman wrote:
Not to complicate an already somewhat complicated topic, there is at least one other set of dynamics you can add which may not be easily quantifiable. That is the amount of pressure and stroke dynamics such as direction you drag the stone over the metal and of course how many strokes per stone.

I guess that is why knife sharpening is frequently referred to as an art.
Stroke direction is a good point. And you can use different directions with different stones :). There exists general agreement and I can confirm that best results are with very light pressure. Number of strokes should be sufficient to remove scratches from previous stone, more strokes shouldn't significantly affect the results. But number of strokes may be important in case of stropping or creating toothy microbevel.
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Re: Super and Micro ceramics progression 1 year 9 months ago #6465

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Luka,
Thanks for the summary. This is a good list of pros/cons of the stones.

Scott,

Excellent point about pressure. I think it is possible (not always the case) that too much pressure can make the edge worse. Using light pressure can be good, but it you don't do enough strokes you may not get the desired result (and incorrectly think as a result the stones don't work as well as they really can).
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Re: Super and Micro ceramics progression 1 year 9 months ago #6466

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In my opinion, it is all these variables and inconsistencies that make knife sharpening so interesting and so much fun. If it was easy, there would be a simple inexpensive machine with minimal learning curve that would do it for you and anyone could do it. :)

But I don't think that is happening (yet).
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Re: Super and Micro ceramics progression 1 year 9 months ago #6470

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Scott Sherman wrote:
In my opinion, it is all these variables and inconsistencies that make knife sharpening so interesting and so much fun. If it was easy, there would be a simple inexpensive machine with minimal learning curve that would do it for you and anyone could do it. :)

But I don't think that is happening (yet).
I think it is happening if you have enough money to regard WEPS as inexpensive :) My second knife on WEPS and all the following was very sharp, so results are very consistent and learning curve minimal (provided I don't count time I read this forum before purchasing WEPS). The challenge starts when you want to achieve the sharpest edge possible or think how to keep your working knives superbly sharp with minimal effort. It is true art and science :)
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Re: Super and Micro ceramics progression 1 year 9 months ago #6471

  • PhilipPasteur
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Lukas,
It appears that you had the answer to your original question before you asked it ???

LukasPop wrote:
["Improve" means two things for me:
1. "Sharpness" - how well the edge can do some push - cutting tests (push cutting paper, shave hair, whittle hair)
2."Polish" - how clear is mirror reflection from the edge.
Now I use progression 100-1000 diamonds < 1200 and 1600 super ceramics < 5 and 3.5 um leather strops. And I think that each step improves both sharpness and polish..


OK, I agree and going further with the 1.4 micron and 0.6 micron ceramics will get you more polish. Going further with the strops, will get you a finer more reflective and more refined for push cutting edge. You can be happy with what you have, of course, but better tools with a controlled angle system will get closer to what you define as your goal. Because of the philosophy that goes into designing the Chosera stones, you will get more polish if you use them, and likely more edge refinement. I have used them, photographed the edge at 400X and done every cut testing procedure that I know. From experience, I can answer your original question, yes the Choseras will give you an improved edge from what you are using now. I have not exhaustively used or tested the Microfine ceramics yet, (at least I have used them) but I can say with a high level of confidence that they also would help you improve your edges...by your definition.

Perhaps you might check out this thread:
wickededgeusa.com/index.phpoption=com_ku...itstart=20&Itemid=63

The micrographs don't lie. Check the difference between the four ceramics in their scratch pattern


[/LukasPop wrote:
[But strops are soft, and therefore not so "precise" as stones, so stropping can lead to rounding the edge, which reduces sharpness. So I recommend to progress to the finest stone available, and then you will need less strokes with strops..

If stropping is done correctly, as the WEPS allows you to do (with the proper technique), you will not "round" the edge. Many of the micrographs show a small bit of convexing of the shoulder before the edge, not a rounded edge of the edge. The fact is that quite often a well stropped edge will be sharper, by any cutting test, than one that is not stropped. Certainly (see below) the edge will be "improved" by your definition after stropping.

I see the same statement many many times all over the Internet about rounding the edge by stropping. Again, if done properly, I just don't agree with it... nor do thousands of straight razor users...
:)


LukasPop wrote:
[If I look at pictures at Grits Comparison Chart www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=c...31:general&Itemid=46 , I can't say that the edge after 0.25 um diamond spray looks better than after 5 um diamond paste. So It doesn't seem to me that stropping with many different sizes of diamonds pastes and sprays has any visible effect.


I mentioned going to 0.025 ...on nanocloth. At that level there is a huge difference. Even at 0.5 micron there is a big difference ...maybe not visibly, but certainly with magnification...and certainly in cutting tests!

Take a look at this thread :
www.wickededgeusa.com/index.phpoption=co...tstart=110&Itemid=63

Lots of good micrographs and info. You will see the scratch patterns from many of the stones, including the superfine ceramics and the 10K Choseras, and many types of strops. You can draw you own conclusions, but there is clear data showing there are big differences between 5 micron and 0.25 micron materials. These photos are much more revealing than the small ones on the WEPS grit chart. Look

Particularly at post 2642 copied below:

For each stage in the latest progression, I repeated the same tests - hanging hair test (HHT) and copy paper push cut (CPPC). Below are the results, in order of the progressions:
Medium HHT CPPC
1600# Ceramic Fail Pass, slight fraying of the edges
5k Chosera Fail Pass, slight fraying of the edges
10k Chosera Fail Pass, very smooth cut
1um Diamond on Balsa Fail Pass, very smooth cut
.5um Diamond on Balsa Fail Pass, very smooth cut
.25um Diamond on Horsebutt (Split) Fail Pass, very smooth cut
.125um Diamond on Horsebutt (Split) Fail Pass, very smooth cut
Plain Horsebutt (Top) Pass Pass, very smooth cut
.5um Diamond on Cow Leather (Top) Pass Pass, very smooth cut
Plain Cow Leather (Top) Pass Pass, very smooth cut
.125um CBN on Cow Leather (Top) Pass Pass, very smooth cut

Keep going to the end and check out the edges obtained using some of the diamond sprays and Kangaroo and Nanocloth. If you are not very impressed by what these media did after the stones, I will be very surprised.


LukasPop wrote:
[It seems that grit sizes of 1200 super, 1600 super and coarse micro are very similar, so I think that using only coarse micro can't take distinctly more time than all of them.


The Microfine coarse is half the grit size of the Fine Superfine ceramic 1.4 micron versus 2.85 microns. When we are getting to this level of grit size, this is significant. It will save time in scratch removal and refine the edge!
LukasPop wrote:
[Then I think there are three "similar fine" stones: fine micro ceramics, 10K Choseras and 15K Shaptons. I haven't experience with either, but according other people on this forum it seems to me that:
1. Waterstones have better "feedback" during sharpening
2. Choseras are the most messy, micro the least
3. Choseras produce the best polish, polish of Shaptons and micro ceramics is similar
4. All three stones produce similar sharpness
5. Micro ceramics are the least expensive, then Choseras, then Shaptons (I take 5K + 15 K Shaptons + blank paddles, this combination should be similar to micro ceramics set)
So micro ceramics look quite fine for me, but it depends what your preferences are.

Number 1 I agree with. Number 2 may be true, but the mess it truly minimal when used per Tom's suggestions. Number 3, well the Choseras and the Superstones do polish better than the Shaptons. So far, I don't know that anyone has done the comparison between the Ceramics and Shaptons in an exhaustive manner. I do have the 5K and 15K Shaptons as well as all of the others you mention. One day when I have time I will try a direct comparison. Number 4, well I am not sure what similar means. So far, I like the edge with the Choseras, but if I am going to 10K, I usually do not stop there.

Number 5, Absolutely. The Microfine ceramics are a heck of a deal. If you get them, I think they will "improve" your edges. Get the Choseras and they will "improve" your edges. Get some of the Kangaroo and Nanocloth strops and sub micron "premium" (HA or Ken Schwartz) sprays and they will "improve" your edge. Now this is by your definition. The question for most people is whether they actually need this level of "improvement". First tie wrap you struggle to cut through will ruin all of that work...
:)

LukasPop wrote:
[This is how I understand different abrasives now :)


We all have lots to learn. I think I can read and sharpen for the rest of my life and will never come anywhere close to knowing it all!
Phil

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I miss you Buddy!
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Re: Super and Micro ceramics progression 1 year 9 months ago #6474

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PhilipPasteur wrote:

We all have lots to learn. I think I can read and sharpen for the rest of my life and will never come anywhere close to knowing it all!

That's what I was trying to say
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Re: Super and Micro ceramics progression 1 year 9 months ago #6485

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One for Phil.

When you break up a quote, leave the bracket out here.
The one before the "T". (arrow)


Apologies for the off-topic.
Last Edit: 1 year 9 months ago by Billabong.
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