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Sharpener and Accessory Maintenance

TOPIC: Chosera stone maintenance

Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 months ago #12029

  • PhilipPasteur
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So... how were the samples ( I presume to be used as a baseline??), in the first two photos prepared?
Phil

MAX 2001-2013
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 months ago #12030

  • wickededge
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I think the clearest view of the edge is at 35 degrees. Here are the lapped and textured results together at 2000x:

Lapped-2000x-35-deg_2013-06-19.jpg

Stone Lapped Smooth

Textured-2000x-35-deg_2013-06-19.jpg

Stone Textured at 50#
--Clay Allison
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 months ago #12031

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I think that I see some difference. Not as much as I thought would be there though.
As this is 2000X, I am not sure whether the differences would even be perceptable when evaluating performance.
Phil

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Last Edit: 1 year 2 months ago by PhilipPasteur.
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 months ago #12034

  • johpe
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Those are some amazing pictures!

Looking at the scratches you get from the finely lapped 10k chosera and the polish you start with I'm really curios on how the edge was prepared I am the first place? That has to be the most scratch free edge I've ever seen! (and I though 10k chosera would give you a nice mirror edge :)
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 months ago #12035

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PhilipPasteur wrote:
I think that I see some difference. Not as much as I thought would be there though.
As this is 2000X, I am not sure whether the differences would even be perceptable when evaluating performance.

There is definitely some difference and I think it's important to keep in mind that we're only seeing a very small section of blade in the image, approximately 120 microns long or 0.0047", so if we see even a handful of extra teeth, say five, in the image of the sample sharpened with textured stone, it would translate to over 4200 micro-teeth along a 4" blade. I think there would be a noticeable change in cutting performance to the skilled hand.

One thing that stood out was how relatively soft the waterstones are. It was very quick and easy to lap them flat and add texture, maybe a minute or two per stone whereas flattening and texturing the ceramics took me nearly 1/2 hour per stone. I came away with the impression that whatever texture is added to a waterstone will be flattened out fairly quickly through the course of regular sharpening, so deliberately texturing a waterstone as a strategy might not be a great idea. I think one would end up grinding away their stones fairly quickly when what was really needed was a coarser stone.
--Clay Allison
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 months ago #12036

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johpe wrote:
Those are some amazing pictures!

Looking at the scratches you get from the finely lapped 10k chosera and the polish you start with I'm really curios on how the edge was prepared I am the first place? That has to be the most scratch free edge I've ever seen! (and I though 10k chosera would give you a nice mirror edge :)

Thanks Johannes! Those samples were prepared using all the stock diamond plates, the ceramic stones and a lot of stropping, finishing on the kangaroo strops with diamond sprays.
--Clay Allison
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 months ago #12041

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Great experiments, Clay! So simple and I guess they have provided a definitive answer.

I indeed also see some differences, but not nearly as much as with the ceramic stones. What strikes me is not so much that the textured stones produce more scratches (some more, it looks to me, although I haven't counted them), but that they seem to produce a couple of quite deep ones close to the edge. Or could this be due to a slightly different angle or other change in sharpening technique?

I'll definitely consider re-texturing my high-grit Choseras and (particularly) Shaptons with 1K diamond stones (or the 3 mu DMT stones... :) ) after flattening them.
Last Edit: 1 year 2 months ago by mark76.
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 months ago #12058

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mark76 wrote:

I indeed also see some differences, but not nearly as much as with the ceramic stones. What strikes me is not so much that the textured stones produce more scratches (some more, it looks to me, although I haven't counted them), but that they seem to produce a couple of quite deep ones close to the edge. Or could this be due to a slightly different angle or other change in sharpening technique?

Based on the hardness and durability of the ceramic material, the quantitative difference should be significantly different with those stones. We originally were talking about the Chosera stones though. The ceramic stones got into the conversation only by way of an example of what texturing can do to change the effect of a stone at the edge.
I'll definitely consider re-texturing my high-grit Choseras and (particularly) Shaptons with 1K diamond stones (or the 3 mu DMT stones... :) ) after flattening them.

Definitely a good idea. Both in light of the objective evidence and the experience based opinions of those such as Tom. I wasn't quite sure how the conclusion was arrived at that there was no effect.
Phil

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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 months ago #12064

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wickededge wrote:
There is definitely some difference and I think it's important to keep in mind that we're only seeing a very small section of blade in the image, approximately 120 microns long or 0.0047", so if we see even a handful of extra teeth, say five, in the image of the sample sharpened with textured stone, it would translate to over 4200 micro-teeth along a 4" blade. I think there would be a noticeable change in cutting performance to the skilled hand.

Yes, it is all about perspective. Even though I know photos are at 800 or 2000X it is a bit hard to adjust the brain when viewing them. The 4200 teeth in a 4 inch blade numbers definitely put it into terms more readily assimilated.
One thing that stood out was how relatively soft the waterstones are. It was very quick and easy to lap them flat and add texture, maybe a minute or two per stone whereas flattening and texturing the ceramics took me nearly 1/2 hour per stone. I came away with the impression that whatever texture is added to a waterstone will be flattened out fairly quickly through the course of regular sharpening, so deliberately texturing a waterstone as a strategy might not be a great idea. I think one would end up grinding away their stones fairly quickly when what was really needed was a coarser stone
.

Agreed. Looking at it from the other perspective though, if one likes the edge obtained with a very smooth stone, it would obviously be worthwhile to leave a texture as fine as possible (as close to the native texture of the stone that is) on their high grit stones after lapping/flattening. Consistency is important!
Phil

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Last Edit: 1 year 2 months ago by PhilipPasteur.
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 months ago #12074

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While the answer to "does it have an affect" is answered, at least in this example, I'm not sure coming to the conclusion that lapping or texturing your stone to a fine finish, is necessarily the correct (or incorrect) one. There are still a few questions to be answered, for example, how long does the affect last, or, what does leaving a stone "rough" do? For example, i've found that some "high grit" stones I've used actually perform better if left with a rough finish, they'll break down quicker and ultimately leave a better polish, than if they're lapped smooth to begin with. And of course, the end user might like an edge better that has the "micro teeth" the stone leaves... (not that you want to purposely rough up a stone to try and provide a more coarse finish). Some of these questions/preferences will probably be left up to the individual sharpener and their situation.

Still a bit of experimenting to do (fortunately for Clay, not all involve a microscope). :)
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