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Sharpener and Accessory Maintenance

TOPIC: Chosera stone maintenance

Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 4 months ago #11839

  • jendeindustries
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KenBuzbee wrote:
jendeindustries wrote:
I'm thinking more in terms of diamonds, but it is apparent on the ceramic- they lose their points, and gain more surface area. Depending on the position and shape of the particle, it may become very wide after some time.

From what I've read, this happens in finishing, not so much later in use. I wasn't sure which way you intended that to read, so just trying to clarify (in my own mind ;) ) I doubt you'll see much change in the surface presented, over time and usage, as the ceramic is much harder than the steel

How much effect the size of these "plateaus" makes I don't know but I'd guess 'not much' except to make the ceramic less aggressive.

Ken

Right, Ken B - With Clay's micrograph, I would say the surface of that sample has been lapped, giving it the large flat plateus. That would happen over time on any ceramic stone, and the wear rate from actual sharpening will depend on the strength of the binder. For example, the 8K and 15K Shaptons are actually noticeably "softer" than the 5K and 30K. The surface texture lasts for a few knives, for sure, but the Shaptons are also no where near Spyderco hard.

Keep in mind, too that the scratches from the diamond plates don't influence the overall surface of the stone in terms of the grit - remember the white stuff is the abrasive the preceding pictures. :) As Ken S mentioned, we'd also need to zoom in a couple of magnitudes on Clays micrograph to see what is actually happening on the surface of one of those plateaus to better see what really happens.
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 4 months ago #11854

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Starting next week I should be able to get back into experimentation and microscopic imaging. I'll be able to texture some stones and then image the effects they have on the metal. I can't hit the super high magnification of and SEM but should be able to get to 2000x. Today I printed a new microscope stage that allows me to adjust the angle of the bevel very precisely in relation to the lens so I can choose to focus on the very edge, bevel or shoulder by adjusting a screw. I'll eventually get one made at the machine shop but this one is working great for now:

microscope-stage.jpg


It's a little rough looking - I'm still learning how to use the printer to its fullest potential but it does work exactly as designed and for that I'm grateful. To all those folks who dreamed up 3D printer: thank you! It's wonderful to take a problem, dream up a solution, draw it, model it and print it right at your desk. Very cool!
--Clay Allison
Last Edit: 1 year 4 months ago by wickededge.
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 4 months ago #11855

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Awesome, Clay!!

Here's more surface texture. Up next is the 5K Shapton Pro, using the same lapping methods on the 140,400,600 and 1200 Atomas. Image size is 1mm x .75mm

We can see that the depth of scratch is not nearly as deep as the 8K Shapton was, hinting at a more solid binder (you could also attribute some variation in lapping technique) Note the shape of the clusters, not that it means anything! :lol:


The 400 Atoma scratches are very clear and consistent. This is an acceptable grit to lap the stone with and corresponds with the Shapton Diamond Glass Lapping Plate (DGLP), which is approx 325/375 grit.


This is the 600 Atoma. It's what I personally prefer to use on my 5K. The 5K Pro is a polishing stone which, by definition, could/should use the 1200 Atoma, but because the 5K is the workhorse of the critical leap on the Shapton Pro series, I like it to be slightly more aggressive.


1200 Atoma on the 5K is faintly visible at this magnification. Note how the surface has "craters" of abrasives - this is what Ken S was talking about with greater magnification needed in order to see what was happening at the individual particle level.


I will get some macro level shots at each level to show how what we see on the surface of the stone with our bare eyes corresponds to the micro images. Next up is the 5K Chosera, though.
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Last Edit: 1 year 4 months ago by jendeindustries.
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 4 months ago #11856

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Here is the 5K Chosera with the #140 Atoma. We can see scratches more clearly than on the 10K - part of this lack of clarity can be attributed to the self cleaning that occurs on the lapping plate - the slurry from the stone actually does build up on the diamond plate a little, and creates a layer of 5K slurry between the diamond and the stone. This happens even faster on the 10K.


The 400 Atoma leaves the surface looking like the moon. the scratches essentially run through clumps of abrasive (which is white). You can see how this makes the stone more aggressive, since it will essentially split the peaks of the mounds, creating more peaks, thus more initial cutting power.


The 600 Atoma leaves the surface relatively smooth at this magnification, and just like the 5K Shapton, is my preferred lapping grit for this stone.


The 1200 leaves the surface very smooth and clean:


I will go back an do a macro set of shots at each grit.
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 4 months ago #11857

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wickededge wrote:
Starting next week I should be able to get back into experimentation and microscopic imaging. I'll be able to texture some stones and then image the effects they have on the metal. I can't hit the super high magnification of and SEM but should be able to get to 2000x. Today I printed a new microscope stage that allows me to adjust the angle of the bevel very precisely in relation to the lens so I can choose to focus on the very edge, bevel or shoulder by adjusting a screw. I'll eventually get one made at the machine shop but this one is working great for now:
It's a little rough looking - I'm still learning how to use the printer to its fullest potential but it does work exactly as designed and for that I'm grateful. To all those folks who dreamed up 3D printer: thank you! It's wonderful to take a problem, dream up a solution, draw it, model it and print it right at your desk. Very cool!

I am so jealous... very.. very...extremely, jealous !!!:woohoo:
Phil

MAX 2001-2013
Hoping there is that bridge!
I miss you Buddy!
Last Edit: 1 year 4 months ago by PhilipPasteur.
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 4 months ago #11858

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jendeindustries wrote:
Here is the 5K Chosera with the #140 Atoma. We can see scratches more clearly than on the 10K - part of this lack of clarity can be attributed to the self cleaning that occurs on the lapping plate - the slurry from the stone actually does build up on the diamond plate a little, and creates a layer of 5K slurry between the diamond and the stone. This happens even faster on the 10K.


I will go back an do a macro set of shots at each grit.

Can we equate the tops of those peaks to the *ridges* that I talked about..
This is for Mark.

I am not an expert in the English language... but I do OK.
What else would be good as a description for the ..often (at least sort of) V shaped peaks of the scratches (in this case highly dependent on the shape of the abrasive) that are longer than they are wide. and tall.. between the similarly shaped valleys...

??
Phil

MAX 2001-2013
Hoping there is that bridge!
I miss you Buddy!
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 4 months ago #11861

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peaks, ridges, grooves, valleys, highs and lows are all interchangeable here... Mark will just have to keep his international dictionary for sharpeners handy ;)
Tom Blodgett
Jende Industries, LLC

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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 4 months ago #11863

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OK this is the last picture progression - sorry for hogging the thread! :whistle:

I'm only putting the 5K Chosera macro pics up because it shows what the scratches actually look like on the stone with more or less the naked eye.

5K Chosera on Atoma 140


5K Chosera on Atoma 400


5K Chosera on Atoma 600


5K Chosera on Atoma 1200


I think we've more than proved the point that scratches in the stone surface from texturing do not transfer directly onto the blade, and that you can use texturing to somewhat control the aggression of a stone.

And We've opened up a new can of worms about what is really happening at the sub-micron level, which my scope can't handle... :dry:
Tom Blodgett
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 4 months ago #11864

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I took one of Tom's pics - the Shapton 5k stone texturized with the 600 grit Atoma - and did a bit of image processing to bring out the scratch pattern a bit more to see the scratches more clearly. I cropped an interesting area of the image - in the right quadrant, the lower left portion of it.


overview:




Cropped closeup image:




---
Ken
Last Edit: 1 year 4 months ago by KenSchwartz.
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 4 months ago #11865

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wickededge wrote:
Starting next week I should be able to get back into experimentation and microscopic imaging. I'll be able to texture some stones and then image the effects they have on the metal.

Ah... saved me some typing. ;)

Seems to me, this is what actually matters.
wickededge wrote:
Today I printed a new microscope stage that allows me to adjust the angle of the bevel very precisely in relation to the lens so I can choose to focus on the very edge, bevel or shoulder by adjusting a screw. I'll eventually get one made at the machine shop but this one is working great for now:

microscope-stage.jpg

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