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TOPIC: Pro pack II set screws

Re: A temporary fix if you need it. 1 year 10 months ago #6937

  • Billabong
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Another question for Clay here.

Been going through a few of the older videos and noticed the prototype ball joint arms used a different principle to lock the micro-adjust screw.
There was a slot through the top of the bracket.


Why did you drop this "clamping" idea?
I would have thought it would be a better idea than screwing a screw directly into a thread to stop it turning.

Can't see the logic, but I'm sure you have a good reason.

Thanks.
Last Edit: 1 year 10 months ago by Billabong.
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Re: A temporary fix if you need it. 1 year 10 months ago #6946

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Just a bump in case Clay missed this.
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Re: A temporary fix if you need it. 1 year 10 months ago #6968

  • wickededge
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Billabong wrote:
Another question for Clay here.

Been going through a few of the older videos and noticed the prototype ball joint arms used a different principle to lock the micro-adjust screw.
There was a slot through the top of the bracket.


Why did you drop this "clamping" idea?
I would have thought it would be a better idea than screwing a screw directly into a thread to stop it turning.

Can't see the logic, but I'm sure you have a good reason.

Thanks.

I liked it as well but let the machine shop guys talk me into the other style. I've been toying with some polymer tipped thumbscrews for locking the micro-adjust or going back to the slot style. Has anyone examined their threads to see if there has been any damage from the thumbscrews?
--Clay Allison
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Re: A temporary fix if you need it. 1 year 10 months ago #6975

  • Billabong
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wickededge wrote:
I liked it as well but let the machine shop guys talk me into the other style.

Was it changed simply to lower cost?

It would seem the clamp idea is usual practice to achieve the result you require.
If not cost or manufacture time/effort, I wonder why?

The thumbscrews might take years to damage the thread if only thumbs are used.
But not long if a wrench is invoved. ;)

Thanks Clay.

edit - If "I" had a choice, put me on the list for a clamp!
Last Edit: 1 year 10 months ago by Billabong.
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Re: A temporary fix if you need it. 1 year 10 months ago #6977

  • MichaelCraft
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I haven't used mine yet :/, but looking at it real close pretending I have the 10-32 conical point screws(which makes the problem worse vs. the flat #8-32 I have right now), I cannot imagine that thread damage WON'T happen over time, and not much of it depending on how much micro adjustment is done. Although my real job is IT now adays, before that I had been on working on cars and motorcycles as my real job, then working on submarines while in the USN, and am back to turning wrenches on cars (buying, fixing up, flipping, love doin' it, and good source of extra income, paid for having fun :)). Anyway, in 24 yrs of working on mechanical "stuff", I don't recall ever seeing a retention system like this, even on assemblies that are static and not meant to be adjustable (where in those cases typically a sharp set screw is used, or one of many other ways). Most likely because thread damage WOULD be the result, and dissassebly would be a problem every single time requiring re-tapping and die-ing or worse upon reassembly, damaging either or more likely both thread surfaces when the main (not the set) screws are removed, the metal shavings caused by the housing acting as a die on the damaged threads, but its RC hardness most likely nothing near a real die, and those metal shavings would damage the threads of the housing all the way through, and would get worse with every adjustment.

Looking at the brackets, I am going to guess they are CNCed aluminum(?), which makes the issue even worse with stainless steel screws, aluminum is WAY too soft to deal with what I am talking about above, I have learned that the hard way machining aluminum heads and intakes (porting and polishing, planing bottom of slightly warped heads, etc.). Even the smallest shaving or uneven thread on the bolts can destroy the threading in the aluminum heads/intake, so as part of the process, after machining, one must be VERY anal about ensuring that all shavings are cleaned off, and even if using new bolts, using a die on all of the bolts to true the threads before re-installing the intake, heads, or whatever. I learned the hard way to be anal given I have had resize(increase) tap the bolt holes after not being able to torque the heads/intake to spec because the orig threads were destroyed, very easy to do on aluminum :(.

Looking at this design, I believe that damaging the threads is inevitable with enough pressure applied, which I don't think is avoidable. Polymer tipped would help but not for long against a stainless steel screw, and would definitely be a wear part, and would not take long to wear for those that use the micro adjustment a lot. Putting pressure at a 90 degree angle on threads to secure the arm screw screw is just a bad idea IMHO :(. Especially if your micro adjustment point has the thumbscrew coming directly in contact with the *edge* of the thread, where given the pressure formula... given that the contact surface area of the arms stainless steel screw is to a point, very little pressure from the stainless thumb set screw would be required to damage the thread on the arm bolt threading. Basically like standing on a 1x4 when it is flat won't hurt your foot, but flipping that 1x4 on its side so that you are standing on the 1" edge WILL hurt given the concentration of same pressure (your weight) on such a small surface area. With a thread on a screw coming to such a fine point, the pressure applied by the thumb set screw is magnified that much more. Ironic all of the crap I learned for engineering in college I never use at work, almost always just at home doing stuff like working on cars (thanks GI BILL :D).

Anyway, the clamp below looks perfect, as long as no metal debris (from sharpening would be the most likely suspect I am thinking) falls into the crevice before adjustments are made(or worse the arm is removed from the bracket) which would cause the same problem, but the chances are much less than with the current design I think. I would probably just put some electrical tape over the crevice to prevent that possibility, and use compressed air to clear out the area before removing the arm if I needed to do that.

Another way, and the most common way I have seen things that need to be adjusted like this would be to have nuts and lock washers on both sides of the arm (no clamp in this case, solid bracket again), and use two small ignition wrenches or something like that to loosen them, adjust the arm in or out, then tighten them again. That would be even safer, but it would also not be very user friendly, and you would most likely throw off the adjustment you just made as you were tightening the bolts since the applied torque is on the same plane :/. With enough thought, there is probably another way that is easy to do and safe while ensuring that the adjustment is not thrown off while re-tightening, just cannot think of one better than the clamp idea ATM without making it even more complicated of a part and therefore more expensive :(. The clamp sounds like the way to go do me.

Just IMHO :).

P.S. I have worked with a lot of machine shops as I have moved around over the years for cars, gun smithing, etc. for all kinds of stuff up to custom part fabrication, but I have never had as much fun with any of my 20 some odd years of encounters as you seem to be having with yours :(.
Last Edit: 1 year 10 months ago by MichaelCraft.
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Re: A temporary fix if you need it. 1 year 10 months ago #6978

  • MichaelCraft
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Billabong wrote:
wickededge wrote:
I liked it as well but let the machine shop guys talk me into the other style.

Was it changed simply to lower cost?

It would seem the clamp idea is usual practice to achieve the result you require.
If not cost or manufacture time/effort, I wonder why?

The thumbscrews might take years to damage the thread if only thumbs are used.
But not long if a wrench is invoved. ;)

Thanks Clay.

edit - If "I" had a choice, put me on the list for a clamp!
+1 on the clamp for me.

Given the pressure law, even thumbs on stainless screws against the edge of a thread(even another stainless) can quickly cause enough damage to ream out the aluminum clamp I think.

Another issue, over time as the arm bolt to bracket loosens up, using the set screw to tighten can also potentially move the arm slightly forward or backward depending on where you are hitting the thread, enough to throw off a micro bevel anyway. The clamp would completely prevent that as well.
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Re: A temporary fix if you need it. 1 year 10 months ago #6979

  • Billabong
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MichaelCraft wrote:
Given the pressure law, even thumbs on stainless screws against the edge of a thread(even another stainless) can quickly cause enough damage to ream out the aluminum clamp I think.

Another issue, over time as the arm bolt to bracket loosens up, using the set screw to tighten can also potentially move the arm slightly forward or backward depending on where you are hitting the thread, enough to throw off a micro bevel anyway. The clamp would completely prevent that as well.

I totally agree, this guy in the machine shop should keep his opinions to himself. ;)
It's not rocket science.

I refuse to use mine as it is, I can only see problems in the future for Clay if he doesn't do something.
Considering WEPS has a lifetime warranty.
Last Edit: 1 year 10 months ago by Billabong.
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Re: A temporary fix if you need it. 1 year 9 months ago #7187

  • Scott Sherman
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There was some talk about replacing the screws that came with the original Pro Pack 2 kits. Has anything been happening with those? I haven't seen anything here or received mine. Was wondering if I missed something. Still waiting to hear from WE.
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Re: A temporary fix if you need it. 1 year 9 months ago #7189

  • wickededge
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Scott Sherman wrote:
There was some talk about replacing the screws that came with the original Pro Pack 2 kits. Has anything been happening with those? I haven't seen anything here or received mine. Was wondering if I missed something. Still waiting to hear from WE.

Hey Scott,

I was just wondering about you this morning, thinking I hadn't seen you on the forum for a bit. Have you got the smaller, black screws? If so, and especially if you've replied to the email, then you're on the list for the recall. I know that the machine shop is rushing to get the new L-Brackets made and shipped but I don't have a concrete timeline yet. I'll post about it as soon as I know.
--Clay Allison
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Re: A temporary fix if you need it. 1 year 9 months ago #7193

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wickededge wrote:
Hey Scott,

I was just wondering about you this morning, thinking I hadn't seen you on the forum for a bit. Have you got the smaller, black screws?

Well I am impressed that you even knew I have been absent for a time. I have dropped in to lurk occasionally but haven't been sharpening because of some projects I been consumed by around the house while my wife was in Italy traveling on business.

I do have the smaller black screws. Thanks for the update, I appreciate that you are working on it with all that you have on your plate. It is greatly appreciated. Look forward to getting the proper parts when you can. I think it will make a difference.
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