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TOPIC: Why water stones?

Re: Why water stones? 1 year 3 months ago #8471

  • KenBuzbee
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The one thing I'll add to Phil's explanation (which is spot on) is the philosophy behind each.

In general:

Shaptons are pure cut and leave very consistent grit true scratches

Choseras are a balance of cut and polish and grit for grit, cut slower and polish better

Superstones are more to the polish end. They cut very slowly and polish very well.

Ken
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Last Edit: 1 year 3 months ago by KenBuzbee.
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 3 months ago #8472

  • Geocyclist
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Thanks guys, good information.

Phil, very good write up. B)

Ken, based on what you just said how would you describe the ceramics (offered by WE). True grit? No polish?

What does the "mud" or "slurry" or "schwarf" on the water stones do? Polish, abrade, both?
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 3 months ago #8473

  • KenBuzbee
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Geocyclist wrote:
Ken, based on what you just said how would you describe the ceramics (offered by WE). True grit? No polish?

They seem to be mid way in between, like the Choseras but they don't do either quite as well. I find Choseras cut better and polish better.

But the ceramics are convenient and easy to use.
Geocyclist wrote:
What does the "mud" or "slurry" or "schwarf" on the water stones do? Polish, abrade, both?

Mud/slurry speeds your cutting by freeing full abrasive particles so the full particle can cut, not just the exposed part. But this also means your grooves will be slightly deeper, and need more time to work out. I often start with some slurry but finish without it before moving on.

Swarf is different/bad.

Ken
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 3 months ago #8474

  • BluntCut
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Geocyclist wrote:
What does the "mud" or "slurry" or "schwarf" on the water stones do? Polish, abrade, both?

IMO

mud/slurry = more polishing and much less abrasion than fixed abrasives because loose particles interact in a lapping fashion.

swarf (super fine pieces of abraded steel & carbides) = polishing, except for VERY (0.0001%) rare large carbide pull out chunk which is undersirable (i.e. big scratchy). I wouldn't worry about them at all just like you're not worried about those black stuff on your strops.
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 3 months ago #8476

  • PhilipPasteur
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BluntCut wrote:
Geocyclist wrote:
What does the "mud" or "slurry" or "schwarf" on the water stones do? Polish, abrade, both?

IMO

mud/slurry = more polishing and much less abrasion than fixed abrasives because loose particles interact in a lapping fashion.

This is not what my experience is. Using mud with a water stone increases its ability to abrade metal.
Below is an excerpt form something Tom wrote in relation to a Water Stone maintenance thread. The method he describes is one fairly widely accepted to work. It supports my thoughts (and Ken's original statement) on this. I use lots of mud on my coarser water stones to speed up material (scratch) removal. I minimize it one the fine stones... because I want a fine finish.

Phil
For example, a popular honing method for straights using a coticule, called the "Dilucot" method, starts off with a heavy slurry concentration and gradually adds water to dilute the concentration, thus slowing down the action so that it polishes more than it cuts, ultimately ending with stone and clean water only. With no lose abrasive, it is the least invasive abrading, which is good for finishing an edge.
Phil

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Last Edit: 1 year 3 months ago by PhilipPasteur.
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 3 months ago #8477

  • Mikedoh
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Hey Phil (re phone #/ email)

Just being a wise guy. No mean intent. Just goofing off. Embarrassed to say the number of times I couldn't find my glasses
till I slipped another pair on, only to realize that the pair I was looking for we're perched on top of my head.
Last Edit: 1 year 3 months ago by Mikedoh.
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 3 months ago #8478

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PhilipPasteur wrote:
This is not what my experience is. Using mud with a water stone increases its ability to abrade metal.
Below is an excerpt form something Tom wrote in relation to a Water Stone maintenance thread. The method he describes is one fairly widely accepted to work. It supports my thoughts (and Ken's original statement) on this. I use lots of mud on my coarser water stones to speed up material (scratch) removal. I minimize it one the fine stones... because I want a fine finish.
Phil

Hi Phil,

A moderate amt of mud in conjunction with fixed abrasives indeed would abrade & polish faster. My answer was for mud only (i.e. only loose abrasives), thus it's lapping not? For a same grit, lapping yield finer finishes - just like stropping is one directional lapping. I don't think we disagree, just viewing this matter at a different angle.
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 3 months ago #8479

  • Geocyclist
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I was following this almost. What is the difference between lapping and not lapping (what ever "not lapping" is called)?

When you talk about starting with mud, exactly what does this mean? Do you wash the stone off or just quick making more?

I start the coarse grit choseras by making mud first, rubbing the together, this lasts until the first wetting. After that it just starts to dissipate, past the 2nd or 3rd wetting it's gone. By wetting I mean when the stones are still moist I squirt about 4 drops of water to keep them wet.
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 3 months ago #8480

  • BluntCut
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You can generate mud by rubbing nagura stone or small diamond plate with your stone. Soft stone gets muddy fairly fast on regular sharpening interaction.

Because WE stones in-use are almost vertical, so mud & water have tendency to drip down. Similar to EP where stone is facing down.

I am speaking as a freehander. I had about 6 yrs with EP, zero with WE. So my opinion in this forum are of 1/2 cent type ;)

Pure lapping = loose particles tumble along the blade/bevel surface.

Stropping is sort like lapping except most particles are loosely embeded, along with tumbling particles. Of course a lot depend on backing material (hard/soft <=> e.g. glass/leather).

More about mud = binder (resin/clay/etc) + broken down abrasives. If abrasive is high friable (like Alox/SiC), it usual get broken up during the course of collision. Easy test, just create some mud, take it, put on leather and strop for a while, you'll see the scratch pattern should be finer than the scratch from the stone directly.

I've rough language skills, so please don't mind my fumbling english.
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 3 months ago #8482

  • KenBuzbee
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Geocyclist wrote:
I start the coarse grit choseras by making mud first, rubbing the together, this lasts until the first wetting. After that it just starts to dissipate, past the 2nd or 3rd wetting it's gone. By wetting I mean when the stones are still moist I squirt about 4 drops of water to keep them wet.

Essentially what I was talking about. If I want to skip the mud cycle I just give them a quick rinse after rubbing them together. You're there, brother!

Ken
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