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TOPIC: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones?

Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9450

  • EamonMcGowan
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First off I want to give a big thank you to Bob at Oldawan!! Bob is a distributor for WE and had product in stock. He is great at customer service. He gave me the facts and then helped me make a decision based upon that. Great great guy!
Now? I can't make up my mind weather I want to go Chosera or Ceramics? I'm looking for bragging rights here and want a mirror finish? I wasn't really into the idea of using water? But if that is what I have to do? Okay?
Please let me know what you guys think I should do??
The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result?
An old Irish toast, May the wind always be at your back, may you always have work and may you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows your dead. Cheers!
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9451

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EamonMcGowan wrote:
I'm looking for bragging rights here and want a mirror finish?

I've used Choseras freehand (not on the WE), but my .02...
Bragging rights & mirror finish = Chosera. It's hard to beat the polish of a waterstone.

But it will be a bit more work and fuss! Not only water, but the stones are a different thickness, so you have to check angles more often. And of course a higher $$$. Bragging rights come at a cost hahaha! :blink: :P
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9455

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Bragging rights & mirror finish = Chosera. It's hard to beat the polish of a waterstone.
CBW34 do you think it is worth it over the Ceramics?
The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result?
An old Irish toast, May the wind always be at your back, may you always have work and may you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows your dead. Cheers!
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9456

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Agree 100%. Chosera for polish, with those caveats.

Ken
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9459

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EamonMcGowan wrote:
Bragging rights & mirror finish = Chosera. It's hard to beat the polish of a waterstone.
CBW34 do you think it is worth it over the Ceramics?

I don't think you need them all... most of the lower work can be done with the regular stones/ceramics.

Whether it's worth it or not... really depends on what you want. If you really want a mirror.... as scratch free as possible.... people shutter when you draw your knife :woohoo: then...................... maybe. :whistle:

You can get a polished bevel with the ceramics and strops. If I'm not mistaken, most of the "mirror edges" Clay shows in photos are done that way.

I think waterstones do it a bit faster, and better, because the stone breaks down and polishes better. So part of the answer depends on the time you want to put into it, and if you really have to have that "perfect" finish.

Phil has written an article on this you may want to look at...
wickededgeusa.com/wiki/index.php?title=U...es_by_Philip_Pasteur

... and there's also some links on this page that talk about mirror finishes...
wickededgeusa.com/wiki/index.php?title=Stones_and_Strops

Some like how a waterstone feels when sharpening, and the feedback it provides.

So, honestly, whether it's worth it or not, is up to you.

If it were me, and you want to try waterstones, I'd try just one stone... probably the 2000-3000, and see how you liked it. I'm not sure if whoever makes these can mix and match.... a 3000-5000 would be a good combo too, if they'd do it.

From that you can decide if you want even finer, and/or some like a little coarser for setting up the bevel/edge for the medium stones.

Also, as an alternative, you can get fine sandpaper... in the 2000-3000 range, that'll help polish a bevel too.
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9461

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If its mirror finish you seek then Chosera is the way to go. No question.

Good advice given above, the 800/1k and/or 2k/3k set is coarse enough to pickup after the 1000 diamonds but still do a great job.

In the end you will end up with both. The ceramics are nice when you don't want to spend the time with all the Chosera stones.

I was very pleasantly surprised with how little mess the water stones make. Soak them for 10 minutes, just in 1/4 inch of water, just enough to cover the stone but not up to the plastic platen. Let excess water drip off. Keep moist with about 3-5 drops of water per stone as needed. I keep a paper towel folded up on each side to catch any drips.
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9466

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If you want bragging rights type mirrored bevels, there is no comparison between the ceramic stones and the Choseras. I think you may find folks that would make you a set up. If so a good set would be 1K/2K after the diamonds. In the WEPS offerings I would go with the 800/1K set. These will give you a more polished edge than what most people consider a mirror. It is really quite amazing, for their grit size, what the 1K Chosera stones do for you! From there it is a matter of how much time and money you want to spend. There is a definite improvement in reflectivity and scratch removal even between the 5K and 10K.

So, I think you want a recommendation. If your goal is as you stated in your original post, and you have the money to do it, buy the whole set. If you can't do it all at once, buy the whole set over time. Either way, you will get what you want and be very happy... until you look at your bank account :(:evil:


I have gotten to really like the set of four ceramics from WEPS. I often stop with those... and maybe a bit of stropping... so don't take anything above to mean that I am belittling them. They have a definite place in the progression that I use for many knives. They simply are not polishing stones.

Phil
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9467

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Okay guys I can not seem to figure out how you do the "fancy highlight quotes" sp please bear with me?

Cbw34 thanks! I had no idea what I was biting off when I said "mirror finish"? I read your recommendations and I won't be needing to use equipment necessary to measure reflective light? At least the OCD doesn't seem to be that bad yet? Lol Simply I live and work at a gun range. With that comes a lot of knife guys. So we are always checking out the other guys stuff and comparing to see who has the "biggest one"? There is one guy who poo pooed the We when I said I want one and I would like to dazzle him.

I have the Pro Pack 1 and have talked with Bob at Oldawans and have pre ordered the choseras, but am now second guessing myself? I'm pretty sure when this is all said and done I will have bought everything ha ha ha. But for now and $$$ it is one or the other?

Phil thank you so much for your answer. I am curious and I think I missed something? Which one is not the "polishing stones"?
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An old Irish toast, May the wind always be at your back, may you always have work and may you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows your dead. Cheers!
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9468

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Any of the Ceramic stones from WEPS... the 1200/1600 or the ones rated 1.4/0.5 microns.
They leave very nice precise, fine scratches, but don't do much at all in the way of mirror polishing...at least to the degree that you indicate you are looking for.

Again, they do have a place. Before I started using them I would go from the 1000 grit diamonds...back to the 400/600 choseras then 800/1K etc to 10K. I now go through the ceramic progression and lots of times start with the 2K chosera stones... and up from there.
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9470

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Okay you guys chosera it is! So from the 800/1000 diamonds to 2k-3k choseras? Then figure out if I really need to eat next week and order the 5k/10k? Decisions decisions????
The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result?
An old Irish toast, May the wind always be at your back, may you always have work and may you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows your dead. Cheers!
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9471

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I would suggest the 800/1K choseras first. If you are going for scratch free... you will work your butt off to get there with the 2K. The 1K chosera is considered the work horse of the line. It is good for relatively fast scratch removal and goes a long way towards the reflectivity that you want. You will get thigs shiny going from 1K diamonds to 2K Chosera stones... but you will have scratches... The 800/1K will go a long ways towards getting rid of the bulk of them.

Have you Read Tom Blodget's series on the Choseras?

First, check out the WIKI.. lots of good stuff there:
wickededgeusa.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page&Itemid=102

Second take a look at Tom's writeup:
jendeindustries.wordpress.com/2012/02/25...oscopic-progression/

Good info on the whole CHosera lineup!!

Don't worry the rest fo the stones will be around for awhile... go ahead and eat next week.
:lol:

I think it took me around 8 months to rationalize my way through getting the whole set.
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9472

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I agree completely with Phil. My fist set of Choseras would be the 800/1k. These are the perfect step after the diamonds. And with stopping you can get good results. I have the full set but often stop at 3k.
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9474

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I'll defer to the guys that are using the Choseras on the WE, but you really need to go back to an 800g Chosera after the 1K diamond stone?

Maybe it's not as efficient as using the larger stone freehand?

Even looking at the microscope pics, I'd think you could go 1K Chosera after the 1K diamond, at a minimum.

What if you could get a 1K/2K or 1K/3K combo made... would you consider that, or still stick with 800 first? (If so, which combo?)

You've got me curious.

Edit: Thought adding Tom's "Grit Comparison Chart" might be a good reference for this topic...

Last Edit: 1 year 6 months ago by cbwx34. Reason: Added Chart
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9478

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Curtis,
We have talked here before about how grit size only tells a ,sometimes small, part of the picture of how any given stone works. When I really want the nicest edge I can get, I go back to the 400 Choseras after the 1K diamonds. The scratch pattern from the Choseras is quite different. Also the scratches seem to not be as deep as the diamonds... and you get the polishing factor throughout the line. The coarser stones allow me to quickly get rid of the diamond scratches and prep for the next Chosera grit.

In theory one could go from the 200 grit diamonds to the 400 grit Choseras easily. The problem is that the don't cut as fast as the diamonds, so you spend more time preping for the next level.

I mentioned that I think the 1K Chosera should be considered the work horse of the line. At that grit it cuts very well but still gets a very pretty edge. Many people go no further.

The 2K is a capable stone, but it does not cut nearly as fast as the 1K. This means you will sped a bunch more time getting rid of the 1K diamond scratches with it. I would say that a 1K/2K set on a paddle would be great, but if you are buying off of the shelf ... for a first set, the 800/1K is the way to go. They will allow one to pretty quickly get rid of the diamond scratches and make the edge quite pretty.

Here are a couple of quotes from Tom's writeup on the Choseras that I linked above. What he said reflects well my experience.
On a new knife, or one I am profiling for the first time, I would normally start my Chosera progression after the stock 600 diamond WEPS plate. And according to this grit comparison chart, it is a clear step backwards to go from the 600 WEPS (16 microns) to the Chosera 400 (30 microns). But as we saw in the WEPS stock progression of the 1K WEPS diamonds to the WEPS 1200 ceramic, the depth of the scratches on the diamonds can be pretty deep, and while the 400 Chosera stones may be coarser, they will not scratch as deeply – so your deepest diamond scratches begin to be exposed and worked out at much lower levels. The 400 (and 600) Choseras are also excellent for doing maintenance and routine repairs without using the diamonds. While I know not many people will be convinced to go back to the 400 or 600 Choseras, this step back actually excels the sharpening process as it moves forward.
There is an uncanny similarity to the 800 Chosera and the WEPS 600 Diamond finish at the edge of the edge. However, the polishing effect of the Chosera cleans up the face of the bevel, making it shine more. They are both very clean and ready for cutting at a basic sharpness level.
The 1K Chosera is a wonderful stone for a working edge. It is often referred to as the “incredible hulk” since it bleeds green You can see how smooth the bevel is, and how clean the edge of the edge is thanks to the effects of the paste.

And he says this about the 2K, but remember he has come up through 4 levels of the Choseras AND through the WEPS diamonds to 600:

The 2K Chosera may look a little rougher than the 1K Chosera, but the edge of the edge actually comes to more of a point than the 1K, and roughly equivalent to the WEPS Ceramic 1600 (although I think the 2K Chosera looks a little better). Again, the paste has enhanced the performance of the stone, and there is actually a very nice mirror on on the bevel at this point, although the actual scratches are not even enough at the microscopic level.

A lot of guys swear by their 2K Chosera as the best all-around working edge, and the 2K sweeping picture shows why.

Finally this, for the folks looking for that ultimate reflective mirror. Tom talks about what he calls the critical leap:
That brings us to the “critical leap” concept. In any progression, there will be a transition where the peaks and valleys are even enough to reflect the surface cleanly. Medium grits still create scratches that won’t reflect directly whereas polishing stones scratches will. This transition is the “critical leap”. On the Chosera progression, you have a visible mirror at the macro level by the 2K level, but not yet under the scope. The critical leap on the Choseras is therefore between the 5K and 10K levels.

I suggest that anyone interested in the Choseras should take the time to read through his entire article and look at the photos.
jendeindustries.wordpress.com/2012/02/25...oscopic-progression/

So anyway, in light of the above and my experience, if somebody is buying the stones as WEPS has them mounted, the 800/1000 would be the first purchase that I would make if I was starting over. A 1K/2K would be a great option if someone will build them for you.

Phil
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9480

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PhilipPasteur wrote:
Curtis,

So anyway, in light of the above and my experience, if somebody is buying the stones as WEPS has them mounted, the 800/1000 would be the first purchase that I would make if I was starting over. A 1K/2K would be a great option if someone will build them for you.

Phil

Phil, I've been following this thread and have a fewquestion for you: Where do the Micro fine ceramics come into play or rank with Chosera progression? Ineresting thread you posted, the only ceramics listed were the 1200/1600.

My current progression is 800/1000 diamonds, Micro fine ceramics, 2000 and 2500 grit paper taped onto ceramics, then strops. Produces good pollish, but still see very fine scratches without a loupe.

If I wanted to eliminate the sand paper, where would the choseras most effectively fit in here?

Before or after ceramics?

Have people purchased a custom mix of Chosera grits already?

Thanks for any info,
Sauce
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9482

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Thanks for the reply Phil. I was rereading the thread... and I saw earlier you had already mentioned that a 1K/2K set would be good after the diamonds if you could get them, so I think I misread where you said you need 800/1000.... it's more of "get that if that's what you can get", cause that's what's offered by WE. :) But the additional info sure helps clarify things.

Sauce, I don't know if they can be made up different than what's offered... just me thinking out loud.
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9483

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cbwx34 wrote:
Sauce, I don't know if they can be made up different than what's offered... just me thinking out loud.

Sure, by third parties. Steven Pinson or Ken Schwartz could make you up a set with whatever you want. 800/1000 400/1000 Whatever.

All my Chosera and Superstones are from Steven and he does great work. I'm sure Ken's are too.

My Choseras are 400/600 & 800/1000 and my Superstone are 2k/8k & 10k/12k I rarely go above 2k for a regular working knife but I've taken a couple up to 12k and they are gorgeous.

Ken
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9484

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Sauce wrote:
If I wanted to eliminate the sand paper, where would the choseras most effectively fit in here?

Before or after ceramics?

Personally, after the 800/1000 diamonds I'll go back to the 400 Choseras if I'm going that route. If I'm using the ceramics, I stop after the .6μ. I suppose the 2k Chosera or SS would be a good follow on but I've not done it.

Ken
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9486

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Well you guys are making me rethink what I'm doing and I'm grateful! My original route was to go with the new arms and 2k/3k choseras? Now I'm going with Phil and if I have this right? A set of
800/1000 choseras followed up with a set of 2k/3k choseras and that I really do not need the upgraded arms? A new set with the new washers would be fine? Sorry to veer a little of thread?
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9487

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Great thread :woohoo: - Eamon suggested I jump on and take a look.

Great information from everyone - I find jumping from the 1000k diamonds to the 2k Chosera to work great for me - the caveat, I realize, after reading this is that my 400 thru 1000 diamonds have done several thousand sharpenings. I had realized that they perform different than what most people experience since I usually have a shine starting already when I'm done with them (and I remember early on being jealous of how Clay's knives were shining after 1000 diamonds), but hadn't really thought about how it affected my transition to the Choseras :blush: - obvious now but funny how I think about that in discussing strops and ceramics but hadn't connected it for the choseras

I digress though - I agree with Curtis that you can get to the mirror with the ceramics and strops (and that bragging rights don't come cheap in $ or time :dry: ) It does take substantially longer - and the ceramics do make the difference. Without the ceramics I don't know that it is possible through just stropping alone (at least not if you do all the other work with diamonds, which is the point here anyway isn't it :whistle:) and adding the microfines to the grit progressing helps immensely.

And I agree you get to a polish faster with the chosera or shapton stones (well really anything that doesn't work as aggressively as the diamonds do). Phil and Ken's statements about backing up in grits make great sense to me given the aggressiveness of the diamonds - guess I'm gonna need to break out some new diamonds and try it out.
EamonMcGowan wrote:
that I really do not need the upgraded arms? A new set with the new washers would be fine? Sorry to veer a little of thread?

Using any stone that wears over time is a case where I definitely suggest having and using the ball joint arms - and when using stones that vary significantly in thickness. Making the angle adjustments when changing stones is much easier with those arms than with the basic kit arms. Not that you can't do it with the basic kit arms, a lot of us have for a while now, but it is so much easier being able to drive the ball joint in and out a little to match the angle.

And - shameless self promotion warning!!! :evil: I build custom handle set of atomas, choseras, shaptons, strops etc.... as well. And we should add Tom at Jende to that list also
Some of the edges I've sharpened on the WE
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9489

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EamonMcGowan wrote:
Well you guys are making me rethink what I'm doing and I'm grateful! My original route was to go with the new arms and 2k/3k choseras? Now I'm going with Phil and if I have this right? A set of
800/1000 choseras followed up with a set of 2k/3k choseras and that I really do not need the upgraded arms? A new set with the new washers would be fine? Sorry to veer a little of thread?

Bob is right about the arms... they make things a bit easier when changing stone thickness. That being accepted... If I had the coice between a set of stones and the new arms... I would go with the stones every time. Bob pointed this out too, but I will say it with emphasis... I used the original arms for over two and a half years, and never found using them to be a handicap. I agree, the new ones are incrementally better, but you can get as good an edge with the original arms...and the arms don't sharpen the kinife, the stones do.

The newer arms set will not get you a mirror edge, but the right stones will.

It is all a matter of priorities (unless one has unlimited funds, then get it ALL :) ), mine would definitely be with the additional stones.

Phil
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9490

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PhilipPasteur wrote:
If I had the coice between a set of stones and the new arms... I would go with the stones every time. Bob pointed this out too, but I will say it with emphasis... I used the original arms for over two and a half years, and never found using them to be a handicap. I agree, the new ones are incrementally better, but you can get as good an edge with the original arms...and the arms don't sharpen the kinife, the stones do.

The newer arms set will not get you a mirror edge, but the right stones will.

It is all a matter of priorities (unless one has unlimited funds, then get it ALL :) ), mine would definitely be with the additional stones.

Phil

+1 on that - thanks for the emphasis Phil (and for sharing all your experience with the Choseras), couldn't agree more :cheer:
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9491

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Ok guys, a lot has been thown out in this thread. What I am wondering is since the 5 and 3.5 diamond paste are ( 5 and 3.5 are microns) and the 1200 and 1600 ceramics are ( 5 and 2.85 microns) won't you get about the same finish by using either the ceramic stones or the paste as far as a mirror finish goes?
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9492

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BillWood wrote:
Ok guys, a lot has been thown out in this thread. What I am wondering is since the 5 and 3.5 diamond paste are ( 5 and 3.5 are microns) and the 1200 and 1600 ceramics are ( 5 and 2.85 microns) won't you get about the same finish by using either the ceramic stones or the paste as far as a mirror finish goes?

I will look for threads later where we as a community have tossed this around before...
Now I will just say, not really.

One of the things that I really struggled with when I got back into precision sharpening several years ago was separating grit ratings from reality. ( I have been sharpening for over 50 years, and always have been OCD. Alway happpy with my results...then came the Internet and unlimeted DIS-information...damn :unsure: )
The ceramics, the Shaptons, the Choseras, Atoshis... etc... and above all the the different pastes all act entirely differently when applied to steel.

I can't emphasize this enough, grit size is an extremely rough guide to understanding what an abrasive does at the edge. You need to know the shape of the abrasive, you need to know how it fractures under pressure, you need to know the concentration of the abrasive, you need to understand the binder and the stiffness of the substrate, ..Then you may begin to know what it does at the edge. Then you will have to understand how all of the previous data applies to different steels..
Then you will give in and figure out that you just can not compare abrasives by reading about them or comparing charts of grit sizes.

The ceramic stones do not have a specific grit. They are measured in surface roughness and loosely translated into a grit rating. You simply cannot directly compare them, other than using them and observing the results, to any other abrasive...period.

Clay has talked about this specifically. I can't now find the thread. I think that Syderco uses the same manufactuer as the WEPS gets the microfine ceramics from, Coorstech... here is a quote from Sal...the owner of Spyderco
"I would be curious as to where you got your numbers for the ceramic stones. All of the ceramics use the same micron size (15-25). the different grits (equivalents) are created by different carriers, different firing techniques and diamond surface grinding.

sal "
www.spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?3...ed-to-DMT-extra-fine

The pastes are also very hard to compare to anything, except other pastes in the same line. It has been well established that a one micron paste from one manufacturer will show significantly different results.. through actual photo micrographs, than that from another. The biggest difference here is concentration of the abrasives. But it goes beyond that. There are mono and poly crystaline diamonds and there is CBN. All can be rated at a specific micron size, but the break down differently. They can all be rated at the same micron size as the mean, but the distribution around the mean will be different.

Bottom line, the ceramics will do a specific thing for you, they will cut consistently. Once you know what they do, you can employ them effectively in your progression. When you try to compare a specific micron size of paste to an equivlently rated ceramic... well you can't!

The WEPS diamond pastes will give you some polish, and the will remove some scratches...given time. As Clay has shown, they will refine an edge. In any reasonable amount of time, they will not do what the ceramics do as far as removing metal.

Take a look at these links.. hopefully you will get an idea of where I am coming from.

www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=c...=5&id=2399&Itemid=63

wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_k...14&id=4555&Itemid=63

Just a mea culpa here.. I have spent countless hours in the past calculating grit siazes of different abrasives and buying things based on that. I wasted lots of money and time. I have countless stones, slurrys, abrasive papers, coumpounds, glass plates, granite plates.... only to find I don't use much of it at all.
Better to listen and learn and sharpen more, than to compare charts...
:)

Phil
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9493

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Thanks Phil. I guess the best way to understand the intracasies (not sure I spelled that right) of knife sharpening, other than reading this forum (which is awesome) is to do some experimenting with different stones, ceramics and pastes in different combinations to see what results I prefer. I get the jist of what you were saying, just trying to reduce as many trial and errors as possible.

WE just sent me an e-mail letting me know that my PP1 was mailed out yesterday so I should receive it around Monday and that is when the fun starts. I doubt I will ever have 50 years experience under my belt as that would put me well over 100 but I'll have fun trying to get there. :P You and many others on this forum seem to have extensive knowledge about sharpening so I'll most likely be picking a few brains.

Thanks again for the information.
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9494

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I doubt that you would have had time to look at the links I listed in my reply above by now in their entirety...
Please take the time to do that. You will learn much. Both are pretty long... but it took a long time for Clay to document the information... this micrograph thing is time intensive..
You we will be well served by going through every frame.. and every comment...and absorbing it all!
I promise!

www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=c...=2399&Itemid=63#2399

wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_k...14&id=4555&Itemid=63

There is no instant gratification in this art... but all of the time you take in research will be rewarded in the reduction of the slope of learning curve that you must traverse.
Phil

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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9495

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Thanks again Phil. I watched the second post but was unable to access the first. Then error advised me to contact the system administrator.

There was a load of good information in the second post which cleared up some things for me.
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9497

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I fixed the link :)
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9498

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The first is maybe the best...when talking about stropping..

Thanks for fixing it Curtis !!
Phil
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9499

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Phil thank you so much for all of your hard work! There is so much here it is hard to take it all in and digest it all. I will however follow your lead and buy the choseras. I spoke with Bob at Oldawans again today and he is going to make up some customs stones for me. We decided on 1k/2k and a 3k/5k stones. I'm not a well to do sort of guy? But I am going to get the ball joint arms as well.
Hopefully this will hold me over for a little while? Thank you again!
The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result?
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 6 months ago #9500

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PhilipPasteur wrote:
Now I will just say, not really.

Phil, that has to be one of the best summaries I've read. Well done, sir! (I removed the content as I hate long quote posts)

Ken
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 5 months ago #9507

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EamonMcGowan wrote:
Phil thank you so much for all of your hard work! There is so much here it is hard to take it all in and digest it all. I will however follow your lead and buy the choseras. I spoke with Bob at Oldawans again today and he is going to make up some customs stones for me. We decided on 1k/2k and a 3k/5k stones. I'm not a well to do sort of guy? But I am going to get the ball joint arms as well.
Hopefully this will hold me over for a little while? Thank you again!

I am sure you will be happy with the items that you ordered, and you will get great results. Please keep us posted on your progress.

Phil
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 5 months ago #9509

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KenBuzbee wrote:
Phil, that has to be one of the best summaries I've read. Well done, sir!
Ken

If I could only get him working more on the Wiki..... :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

This is a good thread to read all on one page.... if you want to, click HERE.
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 5 months ago #9566

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Just my 2 cents to add to this (interesting!) topic.

My favorite progression for a mirror finish is 1200 ceramics - 1600 ceramics - 5K Chosera - 10K Chosera.

I started doing this after Tom's suggestion for a "horizontal move" on the grit progression chart - as you can see the 1600 ceramics have about the same grit size as the 5K Chosera's. It works perfectly!

As far as I know, the 1200 - 1600 grit ceramics are currently not available, but the currently available ceramic stones have similar (not the same) grit ratings.
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 5 months ago #9575

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Does anyone know the "grit rating" on the micro fine ceramics?

Mark, looking at a set of choseras. Currently have the micro fine ceramics, and was thinking I would progress from them to a set of 2k/3k choseras. Now you throw the 5k/10k and say that works well. Looking at one set for now and want the most bang for my buck progression wise.

Sauce
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 5 months ago #9576

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5k/10k Choseras are going to give you a much higher degree of reflectivity than you'll get from the micro fines. I finish most of my working knives with the micro fines and they leave (visually) a light haze with distinct scratch marks under a loop. I don't think they work quite as low as their 1.4μ/.6m rating, but they leave a nice clean edge for most things.

I think you'll be happy going from the micro fines to 2k/3k Choseras, JMO. Then you can add the 5k/10k if you want it even more refined at some point.

Ken
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 5 months ago #9577

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Phil made an accurate remark on ceramic stones and grit rating. That said, I find the 1200/1600 stones fit in quite well according to their grit rating.

As to the microfine ceramics, I think the general opinion is that the coarse ones may be a little more coarse than the 1200 and the fine ones a little finer than the 1600 stones. But I find it hard to tell.

I think you can safely go from the microfine ceramics to the 5K Chosera's. But you can always first buy the 5K/10K Chosera's and if you're not satified, add more.
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 5 months ago #9578

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Hey, on a semi-related note, what kind of wear are you all seeing on the Chosera stones?
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 5 months ago #9579

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The best bang for your buck progression would be the 2K/3K stones.
They will give you most of the mirror for 30% less in cost...and make it much easier to remove the lower grit...including the ceramics...of any grit, scratches.
Sauce wrote:
Does anyone know the "grit rating" on the micro fine ceramics?

Mark, looking at a set of choseras. Currently have the micro fine ceramics, and was thinking I would progress from them to a set of 2k/3k choseras. Now you throw the 5k/10k and say that works well. Looking at one set for now and want the most bang for my buck progression wise.

Sauce
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 5 months ago #9581

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cbwx34 wrote:
Hey, on a semi-related note, what kind of wear are you all seeing on the Chosera stones?

How is an answer to this possible.. really. What do you mean?

Without going back and looking for reciepts and knife sharpening logs.. I can't hardly give you an opinion, let alone a definitve answer.

I would guess that I have had my Chosera stones for over 1.5 years... BUT some came sooner than others..
I am jealous of those that order all of them at one time. I think it took me about 8 months. I started with the 400/600 and the 800/1K... was thrilled, but never happy knowing that there is MO -Bettah stuff out there (Mo-bettah is relative...think of an anal retentive guy that has to have 0.025 micron on nanocloth strops...Then figures out that it is pretty much useless for everday sharpening).
The last ones that I got were the most expensive ones.. the 5K/10K

:(

I have been using up to the 1000 grit diamonds for as long as I have had them. This takes a bunch of the work form the 400/600 Choseras... as well as the 800/1000. I could give a knife count, but I would be lying...I just don't know. It has been a bunch... but I have used the different stones a significantly different number of times over that undefined number of knives anyway.

Synopsis: The 400/600, after flattening three times are about 85% of the original thickness. The 800/1000 maybe 85/80...I use the 1K lots more. the 2K/3K one flattening, close to 90% the 5K/10K ...well damn, I kind of screwed up the 10K...and it hurt my feelings badly. I had some chipping, so I fixed them... too much diamond plate. I would say 85+% on th 5K... maybe 75% on the 10K..mostly from over agressive maintenance..
Now..what does that tell you...?? I didn't take actual measurements..just eyeball.. no actual numbers..;)
I think that , given proper use, and maintenance, the choseras should be around for several hundreds of sharpenings.. several.

Some of this also doesn't go with the conventional wisdom that the coarser grit will wear faster... this is given equivalent use...which I haven't done with mine.


I am sure it was not what you were looking for... But then, I am not even sure of that. A vague question can get no more than a vague answer.. sorry
:evil:

Why do you ask? Do you have what you consider to be excessive wear. better than expected longevity???
How are yours doing?
Phil

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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 5 months ago #9583

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PhilipPasteur wrote:
cbwx34 wrote:
Hey, on a semi-related note, what kind of wear are you all seeing on the Chosera stones?

How is an answer to this possible.. really. What do you mean?

What do you mean, what do I mean? :P

Pretty much what you described... how the stones are wearing... if some faster than others, see more wear from lapping than use, etc. Whatever anyone's impressions are (or if they're keeping notes).... it doesn't have to be specific. For example, if some are wearing faster than others, it could be an indication of which ones to get first, if you're buying one or two at a time.

I don't have the WE version. I do have the full size ones. I got them out today to do a little comparison testing, but didn't get as far as I wanted. Full size ones hold up well... so curious what's being seen on the WE. Don't have an expectation one way or the other, just curiosity, and for future reference.
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 5 months ago #9590

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I only have the 5K/10K Choseras, so it is hard to compare.

However, I have more Shapton stones. On those it seems that the higher the grit rating, the harder the stones are and the slower they wear.
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 5 months ago #9592

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cbwx34 wrote:
Hey, on a semi-related note, what kind of wear are you all seeing on the Chosera stones?

Chosera & SS.... Some are harder than others, for sure. I'm guessing the softer ones are wearing faster. But all of these things are so darned thick, they will all outlast me... I guess that's all I care about.

Ken
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 5 months ago #9596

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cbwx34 wrote:
PhilipPasteur wrote:
cbwx34 wrote:
Hey, on a semi-related note, what kind of wear are you all seeing on the Chosera stones?

How is an answer to this possible.. really. What do you mean?

What do you mean, what do I mean? :P

Pretty much what you described... how the stones are wearing... if some faster than others, see more wear from lapping than use, etc. Whatever anyone's impressions are (or if they're keeping notes).... it doesn't have to be specific. For example, if some are wearing faster than others, it could be an indication of which ones to get first, if you're buying one or two at a time.

I think I knew what you meant.. just being Me. However it is a bit of a difficult thing to pin down. Too many variables...:blink:
I think I will get at least 4 to 5 years out of the set. I did about 15 knives last week.. on the Weps. I have been as high as 40. If we call it an average of 30, that may not be far off. 360 knives nad minimum 80% of the stones left. That give you an idea about the longevity.

If you were to sharpen only with the Choseras, I would fully expect that the 400/600/800 to wear the fastest. The 10K seems to be a pretty soft stone. I have nicked mine and knocked a corner off of one of them, yet they seem to be holding up well other than that. The 1k and 2k get the most use for me, but still are doing fine, as the numbers I posted above indicate..

Again, I think the wear I am seeing is probably skewed a bit from what "normal" would be.. because of doing the heavy lifting with the diamonds... and a good bit of the early refinement with the ceramics.
Besides, I don't always use all of the Choseras on every knife... it gets complicated to give a real good...or definitive answer. Suffice it to say, they should last a typical sharpener a very long time.

Oh, I do not lap the stones before each use... I do rub them togehter under running water prior to each use.
I lay a straight edge on them occasionally. If I notice significant deviation from flat, I break out the DMT plates. The wear caused by using the stones on the WEPS is a lot different that the typical wear pattern on a bench stone. Mote of a broad flat depression in the middle rather than the sort of dishing focused on the middle of the stone with a bench stone used by hand... at least my hands
:)

Mark,
Where did the Shapton thing come from...:unsure:
??
Phil

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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 5 months ago #9613

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PhilipPasteur wrote:
Mark,
Where did the Shapton thing come from...:unsure:

I got them from Ken Schwartz. He did a very good job. He's on the forum, so you can pm him.
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 5 months ago #9616

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Okay I think I have a good idea where to get "bragging rights" for a mirror finish? How about a "scary sharp" knife? Is that chosera or ceramics?
The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result?
An old Irish toast, May the wind always be at your back, may you always have work and may you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows your dead. Cheers!
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 5 months ago #9632

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EamonMcGowan wrote:
Okay I think I have a good idea where to get "bragging rights" for a mirror finish? How about a "scary sharp" knife? Is that chosera or ceramics?

Both. Even the diamonds give you very sharp edges. No worries.


Ken
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 5 months ago #9641

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EamonMcGowan wrote:
Okay I think I have a good idea where to get "bragging rights" for a mirror finish? How about a "scary sharp" knife? Is that chosera or ceramics?

Take a look a the grit comparison chart. In general, the higher the grit, the sharper you can get the knife. This is only a general statement: it depends on the knife steel, heat treatment, your sharpening abilities, etc. And, as Phil said, grit size doesn't say it all.
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 5 months ago #9893

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Okay guys finally got my arms in and assembled the We. I have to tell you I just love the upgraded arms!! There is just no comparison? The feel, the precision, being able to keep your angle (100%)from diamonds to choseras to strops, Just a beautiful thing!!
The choseras are pretty darn cool themselves! I'm not sure if we have a official decision on what a mirror looks like? But the knife was capable of reflecting newsprint, which is good for me! Now I have to see just how sharp I can make a knife? Let the journey begin.
Oh and one more thing. I have to give a shout out to Bob Nash at Oldawans. This man is so honest and filled with integrity he is wonderful to do business with!! Helpful, knowledgeable and when he says he is going to do something it gets done. I would not even think of going someplace else!!
The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result?
An old Irish toast, May the wind always be at your back, may you always have work and may you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows your dead. Cheers!
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Re: Chosera Vs Ceramic Stones? 1 year 5 months ago #9904

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This is an excellent thread, gents!

I'll work backwards - The Choseras will last a while, especially if you start with the stock diamonds to do the "heavy lifting", as Curtis mentioned. Last year at BLADE, I started with diamonds and used my 800/2K combo on I don't know how many knives of varying steels, including S30V, and I did not lap them the entire time :ohmy: They were slightly dished, of course, and took what I would call about 3 normal lapping sessions to fix. Not much considering the workload they had endured. It's safe to say that most of the wear on my Choseras is from lapping since I usually lap after each knife, even though I sharpen each level to perfection.

As for grit comparisons, Phillip stated it very well - the Grit sizes are really the only consistent way of measuring different stones/mediums, after that it's all about how they work, and how it mixes with your technique. There have been several threads that confirm the need for a bridge from the stock diamonds to the polishing stages, especially when jumping to the pastes. The ceramics, Choseras and Shaptons basically fill that gap and then some on both ends of it.

And for the OP, some very sound advice regarding the cost and time factors, however, it really depends on your sharpening philosophy. But don't worry, you won't go wrong with any of the products the Wicked Edge offers - especially with the extremely helpful and knowledgeable people around this forum. B)
Tom Blodgett
Jende Industries, LLC

My Blog: jendeindustries.wordpress.com
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