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TOPIC: Polished edge

Re: Polished edge 1 year 5 months ago #8914

  • cbwx34
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If you read his entire post, he also talks about not raising a burr until the finer grits, as your experience grows. I believe he meant the part you quoted as a beginner tip. (Although, if you read my reply, not at every level).

It's pretty common to teach "raise a burr first with your coarse stone" because that's often the hardest point for a new sharpener to learn. Once the "Eureka Moment" hits.... "Ahhhhh, so that's a burr", and a new sharpener starts to realize what's going on, you realize you don't have to raise a burr with the coarsest stone.... that you'll reach the edge as you progress thru, and end up with a more refined (ie polished) edge, because the work was done with the finer stones, and less work needed to get the coarse marks out.

(I know I'm not Nick, but I did drive by a Holiday Inn Express.... ) :) Just thought I'd offer a different perspective.
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Re: Polished edge 1 year 5 months ago #8919

  • Sauce
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Just pointing out some inconsistencies, no harm no foul. Nick starts this thread out saying not to raise a burr at 100 grit, states it's a rookie mistake. Says quite the opposite in the other thread, more than once. I'm understanding the theory you can burr it up later in the progression, will try it next time.

Thanks to all again for the input!

Sauce
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Re: Polished edge 1 year 5 months ago #8921

  • PhilipPasteur
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Well..
Here I go again. We had a long topic where we discussed what a mirro bevel really is. It seems that many people call many stages of reflectivity a mirror. If sharpening myself I consider a mirror to be a mirror... an edge just as reflective as my bathroom mirror, and with less than 5% coverage with visible scratches.

You simply can't easily get that with the progression that you mention. Actually, I don't think it is possible at all without spending hours on the strops. Recently I tried on some D2, AUS 8A and S30V. I used the diamonds through 1000, then the 1200/1600 ceramics, then coarse and fine microfine ceramics, then 6/3 and 1/0.5 micron paste/spray respectively. What can I say, the bevel was somewhat reflective, but with lots of visible fine scratches. For the application the knives will be used for... it was fine.. and they were very sharp.

The ceramics leave what I would call a semi reflective (shiny, but no mirror) edge. Even after 100 strokes each side with all four ceramic grits, there were lots of visible scratches. Now in this way they are more similar to the Shapton stones. They just don't supply much in the way of polishing ability at all. You can make the bevel brighter with the strops, but you would need hours of stropping time to get rid of the visible scratches. If you want a real mirror (in my definition) you need some stones that polish as well as abrade. Even the 1000 grit Chosera stones will give you a much more mirror like bevel than the sub-micron ceramics. I have 5K and 15K Shaptons that I will not use when trying for a perfect mirror, because, although very precise, like the Ceramics, they leave... perfectly aligned and very precise Scratches! A great edge for cutting things...but scratchy...
BTW I test by holding a bright flashlight almost parallel to the edge. By cahnging the angle it is easy to see both the amount of reflectivity and the damn scratches. It really shows scratches that you may not see in normal light and looking at the bevel perpindicularly.

I can tell you that getting to my definition of a mirror edge is time consuming. I use 13 different grits of stones and eight different grits on strops from 3K up I am doing 150 strokes...or more per side... 3 to 4 hours... and often I am not really satisfied with the results.. I can still see some scratches (AAARG). However, when I have compared these edges with some of the stuff my local sharpening buddies call a mirror edge... they quite amazed at the difference. There is at least an order of magnitude more reflectivity and scratch removal.

So, it is all about what you want. This whole perfect mirror scratch free thing is all about OCD and just saying...I can do it. It sure does not make the knife orders of magnitude sharper... BUT, it is an eye catcher and has gotten me quite a few sharpening jobs :)

Phil
Phil

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Re: Polished edge 1 year 5 months ago #8922

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Hey..
There are lots of theories out there about the best way to sharpen knives, and many techniques. Curtis once talked about never apexing the blade until the last stroke on your finest stone. Not his theory, but some do hold that to be true.

Bottom line, with the WEPS, if you carefully form a nice even FINE burr on both sides, along the entire edge, with your coarsest stone, it should be the last burr you need to form. This assumes that your angles are set properly for each stone, of course. If this is true, you will be hitting the edge with every stroke... absolutely no reason to form a burr to "prove" it. Forming a burr at each grit is a waste of time and steel! I also can't see any reason, on the WEPS, to creep up on the apex. We have seen in Clays photos, Tom's photos and even some of mine, that getting extreme edge refinement just does not require this.

I believe that much of what you hear along these lines came from people that sharpen by hand. There are many things that have to be compensated for when you can't do any better than +/- 1 to 2 degrees in angle control.

If you try this method, Sauce, let us know if you think it got a better edge out of your efforts.

Phil

Sauce wrote:
Just pointing out some inconsistencies, no harm no foul. Nick starts this thread out saying not to raise a burr at 100 grit, states it's a rookie mistake. Says quite the opposite in the other thread, more than once. I'm understanding the theory you can burr it up later in the progression, will try it next time.

Thanks to all again for the input!

Sauce
Phil

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Hoping there is that bridge!
I miss you Buddy!
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Re: Polished edge 1 year 5 months ago #8924

  • nicholas6225
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Hey Sauce,

This guy knows how to create a burr and the basics of sharpening, should he just stop and throw his hands in the air and say he is the god of sharpening? You can raise a burr and sharpen anyway you want sauce, i still stand by what i've said on any post anywhere!!!
" IF I WAS TEACHING SOMEONE TO SHARPEN, I STILL STAND BY THE FACT THEY SHOULD DEVELOP A BURR AT EVERY GRIT TILL THEY LEARN THE SKILL, EXPERIENCE, OR "ZEN;" LOSS OF METAL IS A SMALL COST TO LEARN HOW TO SHARPEN AND UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON WHEN SHARPENING"
The key words here, are.... Teaching how to sharpen!!!! Obviously over time and with burr experience.... I would suggest.....
Try not to raise a burr at 100 grit, rather raise a burr, preferably at 1000 grit or 800 grit. The less time you spend on the lower grits, the less damage you'll do. Don't get me wrong if there are scratches any of the techniques shared will work.
Learning to apex the edge on finer grit stones is something I learned to work up too. The target audience for both topics were different, one with intermediate skills and the other with advanced skills. As people become more skilled the method and technique of sharpening will also change even if a small thing like apex-ing the edge at a higher grit, or something I just learned, using different kind of strokes when sharpening. But I understand it can be mind blowing or confusing if taking out of context.

Sauce, you're all bent because I said "rookie mistake" you're right; The choice of words was wrong, I guess. But what I meant was Rookie: someone with sharpening experience and a basic understanding. It's common for rookies to continue apex-ing the edge or raising a burr at 100g even though they know how to look for a burr and feel one at lets say 1000g. Now on the other hand a "greenhorn" (if I may) should be learning to feel for a burr and learning what to look for when raising a burr which is a lot easier at lower grits. I hope this cleared things up for you, sauce.

Nick
Last Edit: 1 year 5 months ago by nicholas6225.
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Re: Polished edge 1 year 5 months ago #8925

  • 4jlcc
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Great post Phil. Would you recommend the 5k/10k Choseras after the micro fine ceramics?
PhilipPasteur wrote:
Well..
Here I go again. We had a long topic where we discussed what a mirro bevel really is. It seems that many people call many stages of reflectivity a mirror. If sharpening myself I consider a mirror to be a mirror... an edge just as reflective as my bathroom mirror, and with less than 5% coverage with visible scratches.

You simply can't easily get that with the progression that you mention. Actually, I don't think it is possible at all without spending hours on the strops. Recently I tried on some D2, AUS 8A and S30V. I used the diamonds through 1000, then the 1200/1600 ceramics, then coarse and fine microfine ceramics, then 6/3 and 1/0.5 micron paste/spray respectively. What can I say, the bevel was somewhat reflective, but with lots of visible fine scratches. For the application the knives will be used for... it was fine.. and they were very sharp.

The ceramics leave what I would call a semi reflective (shiny, but no mirror) edge. Even after 100 strokes each side with all four ceramic grits, there were lots of visible scratches. Now in this way they are more similar to the Shapton stones. They just don't supply much in the way of polishing ability at all. You can make the bevel brighter with the strops, but you would need hours of stropping time to get rid of the visible scratches. If you want a real mirror (in my definition) you need some stones that polish as well as abrade. Even the 1000 grit Chosera stones will give you a much more mirror like bevel than the sub-micron ceramics. I have 5K and 15K Shaptons that I will not use when trying for a perfect mirror, because, although very precise, like the Ceramics, they leave... perfectly aligned and very precise Scratches! A great edge for cutting things...but scratchy...
BTW I test by holding a bright flashlight almost parallel to the edge. By cahnging the angle it is easy to see both the amount of reflectivity and the damn scratches. It really shows scratches that you may not see in normal light and looking at the bevel perpindicularly.

I can tell you that getting to my definition of a mirror edge is time consuming. I use 13 different grits of stones and eight different grits on strops from 3K up I am doing 150 strokes...or more per side... 3 to 4 hours... and often I am not really satisfied with the results.. I can still see some scratches (AAARG). However, when I have compared these edges with some of the stuff my local sharpening buddies call a mirror edge... they quite amazed at the difference. There is at least an order of magnitude more reflectivity and scratch removal.

So, it is all about what you want. This whole perfect mirror scratch free thing is all about OCD and just saying...I can do it. It sure does not make the knife orders of magnitude sharper... BUT, it is an eye catcher and has gotten me quite a few sharpening jobs :)

Phil
-Joel
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Re: Polished edge 1 year 5 months ago #8927

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PhilipPasteur wrote:
If you want a real mirror (in my definition) you need some stones that polish as well as abrade.

Probably the only thing you needed to type. ;) Ok, not really, it's a good post, and has a lot of good info. But I think this is the key, if you're looking for a "mirror polish", especially to your (Phil's) standard... a waterstone... in particular one that creates a bit of mud, will lead to a better polish. The Chosera's are a good candidate for this. 2nd option would be to finish with leather, but it'll take longer. Finishing with ceramics, no matter how fine, will leave scratching that will be detectable under the right conditions.

Or, just check 'em on a cloudy day. :evil:
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Re: Polished edge 1 year 5 months ago #8931

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4jlcc wrote:
Great post Phil. Would you recommend the 5k/10k Choseras after the micro fine ceramics?

I have been... without going into maniacal sharpening mode.. (super OCD)..
Using the 2k/3K then the 5K/10K stones after the 4 ceramic progresion.
I have not yet tried what Curtis and others have suggested... use the Coarse microfine ceramic, before the 1200, then 1600 and the fine microfine. That could change things...

Phil

Curtis... if I only wrote two lines... I would have been bored for the rest of the time...
:S
Phil

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Last Edit: 1 year 5 months ago by PhilipPasteur.
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Re: Polished edge 1 year 5 months ago #8933

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PhilipPasteur wrote:
Curtis... if I only wrote two lines... I would have been bored for the rest of the time...
:S

:lol: :lol:

It was a good post... don't want to take away from that... just thought that was the key point.

:)
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Re: Polished edge 1 year 5 months ago #8959

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Nick,

Nobody is bent here. Hopefully you're not. I appreciate the info you've posted. Don't get your feathers ruffled, seems they might be. Just pointing out inconsistencies that are evident.

Phil, I wish I had the time for the OCD progression you have for that polished edge, must be nice. Good post, thank you. I have 2 little ones that make sure I don't have that time.

Sauce
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