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TOPIC: Confused by 3 micron diamond stones

Confused by 3 micron diamond stones 1 month 1 week ago #18386

  • mark76
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It's a Veho 400x USB-microscope. Some people on this forum use a USB-microscope by Dino Lite. I think they're pretty similar.
Last Edit: 1 month 1 week ago by mark76.
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Confused by 3 micron diamond stones 1 month 1 week ago #18395

  • LukasPop
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5string wrote:
I've started using the following progression: diamond stones, ceramic stones, lapping films, then strops. As I get more experience I may understand this concept better.
I use the same progression. I haven't any water stones, but I think in this progression, they would be an alternative for ceramics. 3 um diamonds are definitely coarser then all WEPS ceramics. They seem even coarser than 1000 diamonds, but my 1000 are well broken in, my 3 um aren't.
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Confused by 3 micron diamond stones 1 month 1 week ago #18397

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LukasPop wrote:
They seem even coarser than 1000 diamonds, but my 1000 are well broken in, my 3 um aren't.

If this is the case, we should ask some questions. But I've seen similar questions in the past and their answers were all understandable. Please first make sure your stones are well broken in. Otherwise all comparisons are based on quicksand (Dutch expression, is there a similar expression in English?). Then we should make comparisons, preferably based on published micro-photographs of the scratch patterns. (I understand not everyone has a microscope to do so, but there are people here who can do this.)
Last Edit: 1 month 1 week ago by mark76.
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Confused by 3 micron diamond stones 1 month 1 week ago #18411

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mark76 wrote:
LukasPop wrote:
They seem even coarser than 1000 diamonds, but my 1000 are well broken in, my 3 um aren't.

If this is the case, we should ask some questions. But I've seen similar questions in the past and their answers were all understandable. Please first make sure your stones are well broken in. Otherwise all comparisons are based on quicksand (Dutch expression, is there a similar expression in English?). Then we should make comparisons, preferably based on published micro-photographs of the scratch patterns. (I understand not everyone has a microscope to do so, but there are people here who can do this.)

I think that breaking in is a continous process in case of diamond stones. I made some micro-photographs of 1000 diamonds, 3 um diamons, 1200, 1600, 1.4 and 0.6 ceramics (about 220x). DMT and WEPS patterns looks little different and is difficult to say which one is coarser.

Very interesting are the ceramics. 1200 and 1600 look quite similar to each other, but 1.4 look absolutely different. 0.6 look very smooth, but absolutely different than 1.4. So it doesn't make sense to me to compare grits between ceramics and diamond stones and between different types of ceramic stones.

1000_1m.jpg

1000 diamonds

dmt_1.jpg

3 micron DMT diamonds

1200_1.jpg

1200 ceramics

1600_1.jpg

1600 ceramics

14_1.jpg

1.4 micron ceramics

06_1.jpg

0.6 micron ceramics
Last Edit: 1 month 1 week ago by LukasPop.
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Confused by 3 micron diamond stones 1 month 1 week ago #18427

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I wrote a couple of blogs in the past on this subject. Indeed it is hard to compare diamond stones to ceramic stones because they work in different ways: moleculepolishing.wordpress.com/2013/08/...edge-ceramic-stones/

Thus, the grit listing of the micro fine ceramic stones is hard to determine. At least, I had a hard time in doing so: moleculepolishing.wordpress.com/2012/07/...fine-ceramic-stones/ and moleculepolishing.wordpress.com/2012/08/...fine-ceramic-stones/ . I think we agree that the coarse micro fine stones (1.4 mu) are pretty coarse for their listing and the fine ones (0.6 mu) are pretty fine.
Last Edit: 1 month 1 week ago by mark76.
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Confused by 3 micron diamond stones 1 month 1 week ago #18430

  • blacksheep25
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mark76 wrote:
This looks pretty weird to me. I've never seen that on a diamond stone. Can you see what is scratched? Is it something with the diamonds or is it the backing material?

I looked at the scratches under a 10x loupe, and it must be the base material. I have not noticed that on any of the other DMT products I have. The knife in the pic is a VG-10 spyerco delica, and I was going pretty light since the initial few sharpens on new diamond stones are when you can knock off the diamonds since they're still "high" and haven't been worn down yet. Actually, even on my broken-in stones, I still don't go hard at all ("let the diamond/cutter do the work").

Geocyclist wrote:
Good point Blacksheep. I wonder where these fit into the progression? Maybe they do need to come before ceramics?
mark76 wrote:
How do they compare to the 1000 grit diamond stones? Do they seem finer?

I compared the 800, 1000 and 3u, and when you run your fingers over the stones, the 3u does seems smoother than the 1000. I'd probably use the natural progression of (note: "-d" for diamond and "-c" for ceramic):

800-d > 1000-d > 3u-d > 1600-c > 1200-c > 1.4u-c > 0.6u-c > strop

Completely agree with the observations that you cannot compare cutting material size since it's not apples-to-apples, and diamond will behave different from ceramic. When I have some time, I'm going to take beater knife and sharpen it in progression, then when I move to the next finer grit, I will leave behind a part of the blade at the coarser, in the end, you should see the progression back to back. Maybe someone with a USB microscope could do this as well, but I'm thinking you can still see it with a standard camera.
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Confused by 3 micron diamond stones 1 month 1 week ago #18432

  • wickededge
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This is all great stuff. There are several reasons why diamond plates work differently vs. ceramics vs. strops vs. films etc...:

Hardness/friability - Diamonds are much harder and don't break down into smaller pieces (very easily anyway) compared with ceramics

Substrate/matrix - Ceramic abrasives are part of a matrix so the whole particle isn't sitting above the plane of the substrate. The diamonds on steel plates have their entire thickness above the base level of the substrate and they are also harder so the depth (and therefore width) of the scratch will be bigger from a diamond plate vs. the softer, partially embedded, and therefore not full thickness, aluminum oxide particle of the same size in a ceramic stone. The diamonds on a film will compress into the film so the entire diamond isn't exposed and isn't pushed into the metal with as much force. The same is even more true with strops.

So when you have a bunch of 3um aluminum oxide particles fused or bound into a matrix, the size and hardness of the particles contacting the blade will be very different from the size and hardness of a 3um diamonds bound to the surface of a steel plate. The diamonds will stick up more, cut more deeply and give a wider scratch.

Ceramic-vs-Diamond.png


Another thing about ceramics is that the particles can be dramatically altered during sintering. They often fuse together creating larger particles or strange shapes that, when exposed in the matrix, can manifest as smaller particles.
--Clay Allison
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Confused by 3 micron diamond stones 1 month 1 week ago #18433

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Thank you. It's important to know, but better to know why!
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Confused by 3 micron diamond stones 1 month 1 week ago #18437

  • Geocyclist
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Looks like I need to get some. A good step after 1000 diamonds before going to ceramics. Or for when I stop at 1000 diamonds, I might add these, then stop. Also interested if anyone uses them for touch ups as a starting point. I have touched up a few blades with ceramics, but usually damage the edge enough I have to go back to 400/600 diamonds or so.
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