Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: How to deal with a little angle slop

How to deal with a little angle slop 4 months 2 weeks ago #16502

  • tcmeyer
  • tcmeyer's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Gold Boarder
  • Posts: 202
  • Thank you received: 139
  • Karma: 21
Yes! Angle slop in my beloved WEPS! Backlash! The dreaded bane of all things precision.

I was recently humming along with some routine sharpening and I had just changed stones when I happened to stop to check with my microscope, only to find that the finer stones were only touching the top one-third of the bevel I was working. I hadn't moved anything, so I retrieved the previous stone and checked it with my AngleCube. Then I did the same with the finer stone. Noticing some variation in the readings, I farted around with it for a while and identified at least two sources of error. First, there is a noticeable slop in the stone block itself. Second, there is an equal amount of slop in the ball joints.

None of this would necessarily be a problem, but there is a situation in which the two sources are additive. This happens when the force you apply to the stone falls below the level of the edge, as opposed to applying it above the edge. Mid-stroke transitions between the two certainly can't be good, and it happens nearly every stroke.

No, my balls are not worn out (yeah, snicker, snicker). They look like new, have done certainly less than 100 blades and don't even have a layer of dust on them, much less be contaminated by loose diamond grit.

Could this problem have been haunting me in my efforts to reach knife edge nirvana? Is it haunting you?

I didn't see this until I was going to a micro-fine ceramic. Does this mean it's only a problem with finer grits? Or does it mean that a bevel that isn't flat can't really be polished by a very fine grit as easily as it should?

I thenceforth tried to keep my hands low on the blocks and tried not to go above the edge line, at which the blocks would tip ever-so-slightly to a higher angle. Fewer sharpening problems so far. I haven't heard any angels singing about this revelation of another truth, but we're hopeful that God is letting his foot off the cold throttle in Wisconsin.

I'll try to quantify the slop in the ball joints. Meanwhile, by my fairly educated eyeball, I'd guess 15 to 20 thou.

Excessive slop in a block could be fixed by pressing in each end a short sleeve of tighter tolerance.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: leomitch, EamonMcGowan, LeoBarr

How to deal with a little angle slop 4 months 2 weeks ago #16503

  • leomitch
  • leomitch's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 719
  • Thank you received: 206
  • Karma: 92
I ran into this problem when I first started and was somewhat fanatical about my edges and noticed stuff like that. I blamed it on my spastic, uncoordinated swiping with the stones. I found it stopped when I took a lower grip on the stones and slowed down. My method of slowing down was to do one side counting, then the other side counting and so on. For most out there this would be very slow, too slow, but the problem stopped and I found this slow method of using the paddles suited me.I know, I know the WEPS is a double swiping sort of rig. I am peculiar as you may have figured by now!
You may think that I am joking when I talk about Zen and sharpening since I am a kidder, but I do Zen meditation and have for perhaps 40 years and I find this slow way of using the WEPS lends itself to meditating. Weird stuff eh, :ohmy: but there you go. That all began when I was into archery and the martial arts way back when I was at the top of my arc. Have I ever pranged myself with one of the blades while doing this...just once, but never again in the three years I have been using Clay's rig.

Leo
Never go anywhere without your knife!
Gibbs rule number 9

Leo James Mitchell
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: EamonMcGowan, LeoBarr

How to deal with a little angle slop 4 months 2 weeks ago #16504

  • leomitch
  • leomitch's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 719
  • Thank you received: 206
  • Karma: 92
"No, my balls are not worn out (yeah, snicker, snicker)"
I am so happy to hear that mate! ROTFLMAO!!

Leo
Never go anywhere without your knife!
Gibbs rule number 9

Leo James Mitchell
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re:How to deal with a little angle slop 4 months 1 week ago #16532

  • razoredgeknives
  • razoredgeknives's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 697
  • Thank you received: 290
  • Karma: 38
Man TC, that's not good! I know the old arms had some slop issues, but the new arms were supposed to fix this :-\ I just ordered the new ones so I will report once I get them. Have they always been like this?

Josh
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: EamonMcGowan

How to deal with a little angle slop 4 months 1 week ago #16534

  • EamonMcGowan
  • EamonMcGowan's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 517
  • Thank you received: 192
  • Karma: 28
For me I found when I had the original arms grip meant everything! I had to train myself to hold and where I held the paddle. I since have the upgraded arms and it is not nearly as bad.
With that being said, I now hold my paddles with a grip 2/3 of the way up the paddle and I make sure that I am applying the same pressure with my all swipes.
As far as slop in my ball joints I think I'm good? But I did trade with Bob Nash till I got the pair I liked for stiffness. My joints are stiff enough that when I remove the paddle in an upward stroke the shaft will remain upward. But I have no play?
Okay there's my .02 cents on the subject? ymmv? :S
The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result?
An old Irish toast, May the wind always be at your back, may you always have work and may you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows your dead. Cheers!
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: razoredgeknives

How to deal with a little angle slop 4 months 1 week ago #16535

  • leomitch
  • leomitch's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 719
  • Thank you received: 206
  • Karma: 92
If I may add to what I wrote above, the slop was with the old arms and really was not too serious.
Now I have the new arms and there is no problem, tight as a drum, but I still continue as I have described above. It is slow but very relaxing and satisfying, at least for an old codger who is in no hurry at all! B)
Leo
Never go anywhere without your knife!
Gibbs rule number 9

Leo James Mitchell
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: EamonMcGowan

How to deal with a little angle slop 4 months 1 week ago #16540

  • tcmeyer
  • tcmeyer's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Gold Boarder
  • Posts: 202
  • Thank you received: 139
  • Karma: 21
Thanks for all the feedback, Guys. Reading that your ball joints are nice and tight led me to take a close look at mine. My rod-end ball joints have been loose since day one. Let go of the rod and it'll flop down to where Mr Gravity sends it.

Tonight I got out my dial indicator and measured the axial play at 0.005" on the left and 0.006" on the right. I noticed that the opposite face of the balls have a center-punch (staking mark) on them. Thinking this must be a "tuning" device as used by most gunsmiths, I tried giving them a whack or two and only buggered up the set-screw end. Easily fixed, but no real progress.

I was sure I'd seen more movement at the ball joints, so I placed a stone handle in position and tried to move the bottom toward and away from vise center. There really is a lot of movement visible at the ball joint, but it's mostly coming from the over-sized bores in the stone handles.

When I set the AngleCube on the stone and the stone resting against the vise, I read a 0.4 degree change from when I apply force at the bottom of the stone to applying force to the top of the stone. Same for both sides.

Back when I got my PP2 Pack, the new rods were much tighter in the handle bores. On a few handles they were so tight they were unusable. I remember running a light sandpaper thru them to free 'em up. Later I found that one of the new rods wasn't absolutely straight. So I may have contributed to this problem, but I only remember opening up a few tight blocks. Gee, life was easier when I was dumber.

Could one of you gents check your systems to see what sort of change you read when you rock the stone about the fulcrum of the vise? Is 0.4 degrees normal?
The administrator has disabled public write access.

How to deal with a little angle slop 4 months 1 week ago #16546

  • GibCurry
  • GibCurry's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Expert Boarder
  • Gib
  • Posts: 141
  • Thank you received: 102
  • Karma: 20
leomitch wrote:
...... You may think that I am joking when I talk about Zen and sharpening ..... but I do Zen meditation and have for perhaps 40 years and I find this slow way of using the WEPS lends itself to meditating. .....I was into archery and the martial arts way back when I was at the top of my arc. ...............Leo

A neophyte in many ways, does being past the top of the arc mean closer to the bull's eye?
~~~~

For Now,

Gib

Φ

"Things work out best for those who make the best out of the way things work out."

"My goal is to be a good, practical knife sharpener. My dream is to polish molecules."
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re:How to deal with a little angle slop 4 months 1 week ago #16613

  • razoredgeknives
  • razoredgeknives's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 697
  • Thank you received: 290
  • Karma: 38
I just got mine in... The right one has zero play and the left only barely noticeable. I am not sure how to measure it with my caliper?

They will both fall down with gravity extremely easily.

Yes, there is play in the over bored holes in the paddles... Nothing to do about this I suppose. :-)

Josh
Last Edit: 4 months 1 week ago by razoredgeknives.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re:How to deal with a little angle slop 4 months 1 week ago #16614

  • Mikedoh
  • Mikedoh's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 445
  • Thank you received: 104
  • Karma: 14
A couple years ago, some would use straws from Subway to take out the play. Don't know if that works with the paddles/arms now.
Mine don't really have what I consider play in them. A couple have tight spots and I just lube the rods.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Time to create page: 0.141 seconds