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TOPIC: Suggested/Factory Angle not Jiving w/Sharpie?

Suggested/Factory Angle not Jiving w/Sharpie? 8 months 3 weeks ago #15192

  • tcmeyer
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Don't think of it at "trailblazing." Think of it as correcting an improperly beveled knife. The Sharpie is simply to tell you when you've reached the apex.
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Suggested/Factory Angle not Jiving w/Sharpie? 8 months 3 weeks ago #15193

  • Mikedoh
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I like to think of it more as showing where contact between stone and blade are occurring. Just me, just my visualization.
2¢
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Suggested/Factory Angle not Jiving w/Sharpie? 8 months 3 weeks ago #15194

  • tcmeyer
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In this case, your two cents worth is spot on, and a more accurate definition than mine. I was specifically referring to JDS's search for the right angle, which is slowly leading him to the apex.
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Suggested/Factory Angle not Jiving w/Sharpie? 8 months 3 weeks ago #15195

  • JDS
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So are you saying if I take a knife that has a factory 22 degree angle, set my stones/arms at 22 degrees to match with an angle finder, I should NOT expect to be removing the sharpie at the edge of the edge... or "apex"?

Or, like "TC" says, even though the Hinderer is said to have a factory 22 degree angle, could that not actually be the angle it's at brand new and I would be actually correcting it... even on a high end knife?
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Suggested/Factory Angle not Jiving w/Sharpie? 8 months 3 weeks ago #15196

  • Mikedoh
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JDS wrote:
So are you saying if I take a knife that has a factory 22 degree angle, set my stones/arms at 22 degrees to match with an angle finder, I should NOT expect to be removing the sharpie at the edge of the edge... or "apex"?

the sharpie and angle finder will show what the "factory angle " is. Without a goniometer, there is no other easy way to determine what angle the blade left the factory with that I am aware of.

Or, like "TC" says, even though the Hinderer is said to have a factory 22 degree angle, could that not actually be the angle it's at brand new and I would be actually correcting it... even on a high end knife?

High end knives are still sharpened, free hand on a belt, and like TC says you would be correcting it. Browse around the forum and practice on inexpensive knives.
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Suggested/Factory Angle not Jiving w/Sharpie? 8 months 3 weeks ago #15197

  • cbwx34
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JDS,

Are you checking both sides of the knife and seeing this (or in other words, is your knife vertical in the clamp)? I ask this because something looks really off in your setup. It's hard to tell from your pictures, but, especially in the first picture you posted... it looks like there's a huge gap between the two sides, and there shouldn't be. The space between the clamps basically should be about the same width as the knife, and there shouldn't be such a big gap and overhang that I'm seeing... unless I'm not looking at it right.

To answer your other question, what most makers say there knife is sharpened at and what they actually are is often different, although I don't know if that's true with a "Hinderer". At this point though, I'm more interested in why the clamp setup looks like it does.
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Suggested/Factory Angle not Jiving w/Sharpie? 8 months 3 weeks ago #15198

  • Mikedoh
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Curtis
I'd noticed the clamp looking out of whack myself and thought it was just a mock up to show angle gauge use. If that is in actuality the way the knife is clamped, something is definitely off there.
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Suggested/Factory Angle not Jiving w/Sharpie? 8 months 3 weeks ago #15200

  • Todd in Chicago
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Maybe I'm seeing it wrong, but the knife doesn't even look like its in the clamp and the clamp doesn't look square to the base, is that an optical illusion?
Ahhh..I see, its clamped (duh). Sorry....

Todd in Chicago
Last Edit: 8 months 3 weeks ago by Todd in Chicago. Reason: reviewed photo more closely
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Suggested/Factory Angle not Jiving w/Sharpie? 8 months 3 weeks ago #15201

  • JDS
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Good eye on the clamp. As I repositioned the arms I did indeed notice the clamp was way too far out on the bottom and corrected it but still way off (I think) in my angles. I think it looks more out of whack from that photo-angle than it really is but i'll do some checks.

So not to beat a dead horse but maybe I could just ask about your set-up procedure...

Say you want to sharpen a knife with a 22 degree factory angle and keep that factory angle. You position it in the WE, set angle of arms/stones to 22. Say you did a "sharpie test" as well but marker is removed from bottom of edge. You're saying you just go ahead with sharpening anyway, "forcing/re-profiling" the edge to YOUR specifications (or 22 degree angle)? So essentially if you did another sharpie test at the end of your session the marker would now be removed from the edge and I guess the knife did not have a true 22 degree angle to start with?

And just FYI, i'm not really practicing on the Hinderer, just doing some light test swipes with a high grit because it's the one knife where I know the correct factory angle. I have a box of practice knives i'm using.

I've done about ten knives and believe it or not they've come out pretty good just using the sharpie to match the angle. But the discrepancy between what i'm seeing most edges sharpened at and what MY readings are is bugging me.

Again, it seems like if I have a knife at "X" factory angle and I set my arms to match "X" angle I should be removing marker pretty close to the apex, not the bottom. Is that NOT common?

Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it!
Last Edit: 8 months 3 weeks ago by JDS.
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Suggested/Factory Angle not Jiving w/Sharpie? 8 months 3 weeks ago #15202

  • tcmeyer
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Sorry guys, but I have a real problem picking up on what you're seeing in the clamp set-up in the last photo. I thought I could see that the opening between the two sides was wider at the bottom than the top, so I blew the photo up in a "Photoshop" app, boosted the brightness and the two sides look pretty close to parallel, which would be correct.

brightnessboost.png



Of course the user has to watch carefully to make sure the knife is clamped vertically and is not leaning to one side or the other. I looked at a bunch of photos of Hinderer XM-18 knives and it looks as if all have at least a small amount of flat where they'd be clamped. Ah, but I'm assuming here... My practice is to clamp ALL folding knives with the bolster pushed up against the clamp. I'll explain that elsewhere.

As the thickness of the blade increases, (say, a machete as opposed to a filet knife) the centerline of the knife (the line that the apex should fall on) moves by one-half of the thickness change. The apex moves away from the fixed side and towards the free side. This means that the angle will increase on the fixed side and decrease on the opposite side. The Hinderer has a thickness of about 0.180", so the theoretical center of the blade would move 0.090". But compared to what? I measured a setup with my Buck 110 folding knife.

At the 22 degree detents, I measured 2.66" horizontally between the center of the ball joints and the center of the blade ( 0.12" thick")

I measured 4.85" vertically between the centerline of the ball joints and the apex of the blade over the center of the vise. This is the adjacent side of my triangle.

I measured a couple of diamond blocks and found them to be about 1.187" thick, resulting in an offset of 0.594". This means the base (opposite side) of my triangle is 2.067".

My Navy training trig says the tangent of my triangle is 2.067 / 4.85 = .426. The included angle (arctangent=0.426) is actually 22.54 degrees. My angle cube says 22.6 degrees. As near as I can see, both sides are identical.

Now if we switch to a Hinderer XM-18, which has a thickness of 0.185" the vertical centerline of the knife will move 0.033" to the right. This means that my triangles are no longer identical. Theoretically, the angle on the left becomes 22.9 degrees and the angle on the right becomes 22.2 degrees.

Not enough of a difference to worry about, but if you go to something thicker, the angle change does become a factor. I don't know if it would be noticeable on the finished knife.
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