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Sharpener and Accessory Maintenance

TOPIC: Chosera stone maintenance

Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 months ago #11902

  • mark76
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Awesome topic, guys! This is definitely not just the Wicked Edge forum, but also the forum where the most experienced sharpeners, people who aren’t afraid to ask “dumb” questions about sharpening and people who love to experiment come together. And where your ass doesn’t get kicked when try you upset the apple cart.

Clay, that’s a very revealing photograph, the SEM image of the ceramic stone. I can now really imagine how texturing a stone like that (particularly such a polished one) with a diamond plate would change the texture of this ceramic stone: by creating ridges/high spots of abrasive material. And how the way a ceramic stone like that is textured would change the finish it leaves on the edge.

And this would not be the case with a waterstone. Tom has nearly proved this. (Just waiting for Clay's images of the impact on the edge...) In the case of a ceramic stone, lapping with a diamond plate may change the size of the abrasive spots (not particles, not even between quotes, thanks Phil ;) ), whereas in case of a water stone this is not the case. In the case of a water stone, the abrasive things (particles) keep their size.

At least, that’s a hypothesis. I completely agree with you guys (Ken phrased this well for the case of the ceramic stone) that it is only a hypothesis.

It would be great if you’d have the time to do some experiments, Clay. I remember from the time when you introduced the 1.4/0.6 mu stones that you gave the advice to lap them with a diamond stone and I’ve always wondered why and whether that would have any effect.
Last Edit: 1 year 2 months ago by mark76.
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 months ago #11972

  • wickededge
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Finally got the new microscope stage set up and got my Micro-Fine ceramic stones prepared. I textured one set with a new 50# diamond plate and I lapped the other set through all the diamond plates and down to 3 microns on a big DMT plate I have (we'll be carrying the DMT 3 micron stones soon.) There is a very noticeable difference between the two sets of stones now. I started with a fairly well polished set of blades. Here is a sample before applying the Micro-Fine ceramic stones:

Starting-Sample---2000x-at-13-deg.jpg


This sample is photographed at 13 degrees from horizontal to match the bevel I'd put on. At 2000x with immersion oil, you get a reflection of the bevel (I think it's a reflection though it's remotely possible that we're actually seeing the other side of the edge. I believe I can test this at some point by altering the other side slightly and verifying whether we can see the alteration.) The line down the middle of the image is the edge and bevel is to the right of that line.

Next I raised the angle significantly to look down on the edge a little more:

Starting-Sample---2000x.jpg
--Clay Allison
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 months ago #11974

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Here is a blade after using the finely lapped Micro-Fine stones:

Lapped-800x.jpg

This first image is at 13 degrees and 800x magnification.

Lapped-2000x-1.jpg

This image is at 13 degrees and 2000x.

Lapped-2000x-2.jpg

This last image is at a much steeper angle and at 2000x.
--Clay Allison
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 months ago #11975

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Here is a blade after using the textured Micro-Fine stones:

Textured-800x.jpg

I saw when I put it under the scope that I hadn't reached the edge... Image is at 13 degrees, 800x.

Textured-800x-2.jpg

Closer to the edge, almost there. 13 degrees and 800x.

Textured-800x-3.jpg

All the way to the edge finally. 13 degrees and 800x.
--Clay Allison
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 months ago #11976

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Textured-2000x-1.jpg

13 degrees and 2000x.

Textured-2000x-2.jpg

35 degrees and 2000x.
--Clay Allison
Last Edit: 1 year 2 months ago by wickededge.
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 months ago #11977

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The Micro-Fine ceramics are of course very different than any of the waterstones and what we learn with the Micro-Fines will likely only be part of the story with the waterstones. Several things jump out: texturing the stones yields a very clear difference in the bevel and edge. The rough texture is quite noticeable while sharpening; it's much rougher feeling and sounding. Significantly more metal was deposited on the textured stones compared to the lapped stones. The scratch pattern created by the textured stones (when it actually reaches the edge) leaves a toothy edge compared with the lapped stones.
--Clay Allison
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 months ago #11978

  • Mikedoh
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I realize that you textured and lapped the ceramics for the empirical data they produced on an edge.
Do you have any ideas on these "resurfaced" ceramics in routine sharpening? Would they be sort of a kinder, gentler diamond stone now?

Also curious as to the behavior of your 50 diamond now?

Thanks for the experimental show and tell.
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 months ago #11979

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Mikedoh wrote:
I realize that you textured and lapped the ceramics for the empirical data they produced on an edge.
Do you have any ideas on these "resurfaced" ceramics in routine sharpening? Would they be sort of a kinder, gentler diamond stone now?

Also curious as to the behavior of your 50 diamond now?

Thanks for the experimental show and tell.

Thanks and nice questions. I haven't really examined my 50# stones yet but I believe just by casual observation that it is somewhat more broken in now.

As far as the ceramics, yes, they've become more aggressive but are still gentler than the diamond plates. Since it's possible to create a range of textures, one could tinker around with the final surface roughness until a desired result was achieved.
--Clay Allison
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 months ago #11980

  • EamonMcGowan
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That was really some cool pics to look at! I really enjoyed looking at the edges and the edge of the edge :)
The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result?
An old Irish toast, May the wind always be at your back, may you always have work and may you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows your dead. Cheers!
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 months ago #11982

  • mark76
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Wow, amazing pictures again!

This is a pretty revealing experiment. It seems to me that it shows that on ceramic stones the texturing does matter. And not (only) the “grit size”. Finally I think I understand Sal and Coorstek. Is this a correct conclusion?

It’d be great, Clay, if you could repeat the experiment with a fine water stone. That would also give us the definitive answer whether lapping them on a coarse plate results in the same edge finish as lapping them on a fine plate.
we'll be carrying the DMT 3 micron stones soon

Really? As Wicked Edge stones on paddles? With the same thickness as the other stock stones? That’d be awesome! I’ll order them the same day they are put on sale...
Last Edit: 1 year 2 months ago by mark76.
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