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Sharpener and Accessory Maintenance

TOPIC: Chosera stone maintenance

Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 weeks ago #12084

  • PhilipPasteur
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All of the questions will be left up to the individual sharpener. We all do things a bit differently.
My thought is simply that if the effect that you are after is the one produced by the smooth surface of the stone, before lapping, then a fine texture will get you closer to that effect faster. I am not sure how this would be something that is not pretty obvious to most sharpeners. It seems pretty intuitive, to me anyway.

Apparently there are all kinds of stages of texturing that can be used for different results. Each sharpener will have to decide whether using this method to achieve a result is efficient. Notice, no correct nor incorrect in the statement. Those terms imply that there is a specific right or wrong methods involved.
I would also think, especially considering how many times the phrase, "it depends" is used in sharpening discussions... that correct or incorrect are not descriptions that we need to apply to any solution (except maybe keeping ones fingers away from a sharp blade) :S .

Maybe better, if you want "X" results, we have seen that this process can get you there. Try it and see what you think..:whistle:

I think, OTH, that if one wants the effects of a more course stone, they would be better off using a more course stone rather than texturing something as soft as most water stones.
Phil

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Last Edit: 1 year 2 weeks ago by PhilipPasteur.
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 weeks ago #12085

  • wickededge
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I learned a couple neat things from this experiment:
  1. With lapping/texturing I can tweak my Micro-Fine Ceramics to a preferred finish that will convey to the knives I'm sharpening, bevel and edge. The texture I create will leave coarser or finer scratch patterns as desired and the stones are hard enough to hold that texture for quite a while.
  2. I won't bother to texture my waterstones for effect because they are soft enough that the effect will be so short lived as to not be worth the amount of (expensive) stone lost in the process.
  3. Adding a tiny bit of texture before rubbing my waterstones together will speed the process of developing a slurry. This seem to only matter on my 5k/10k stones. The lower grit stones develop a slurry very quickly when rubbed together.

If I want more tooth on the edge of a well polished blade, I create a very small micro-bevel with the desired grit. In that spirit, if I finish a knife with my 10k stones but want more bite, I'll go out a degree or so and make a couple very light passes with a coarser stone.
--Clay Allison
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 weeks ago #12086

  • cbwx34
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PhilipPasteur wrote:
My thought is simply that if the effect that you are after is the one produced by the smooth surface of the stone, before lapping, then a fine texture will get you closer to that effect faster. I am not sure how this would be something that is not pretty obvious to most sharpeners. It seems pretty intuitive, to me anyway.

It seems intuitive, but it's not. Your statement is correct, that if you desire the finish left by a stone with a smooth surface, then yes it's obvious... lap/texture your stone to that level. (It's actually a self fulfilling prophecy.)

But if your desire is to have a fine grit stone give you the finest "best polish" finish possible (that in some of the posts I got the impression that's what some people are after)... lapping/texturing it to a fine finish won't necessarily give you that, and actually in most cases won't. (Talking Choseras here... Shaptons are a bit different also). It goes to Clay's 3rd point that I just saw... a bit of texture helps the stone break down, develop a slurry, and provide a better finish.

There's a distinct difference between these two desired results. And it has nothing to do with trying to get a more coarse finish from a fine stone, which everyone seems to agree, that there's a better route to take.
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 weeks ago #12091

  • EamonMcGowan
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Wow has this been an education! As in so many things sharping. I really learn so much here on this forum. I had no idea or concept about texturing a stone prior to this thread. Maybe it is intuitive to some but I only know a few people that can sharpen a knife and out of them I really don't think they know how to texture a stone?
I think whenever someone gets more and more into their hobby the more we become "purist". Forgetting what it is like to be new? I see it on the gun range all the time. The range safety officer will give the command to "lock you bolts open-make your weapon clear". New people just stare at each other? When he should have said "unload your gun-make them safe".
It has taken almost to the end of this thread for me to understand where you guys have been coming from? It wasn't till Clay gave the observation about so many "teeth per micron" that I had a clue what was trying to be achieved? I am very grateful to all who taught me so much in this thread and to Clay for all your hard work!
The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result?
An old Irish toast, May the wind always be at your back, may you always have work and may you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows your dead. Cheers!
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 weeks ago #12099

  • MattCole
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The concept of texturing a ceramic stone (and that it will last) is kind of a revalation for me. In another thread I had asked for a solution for getting ALL of the 1k diamond scratches out faster when moving to ceramics or films or whatever. It seems a coarse textured 1.4 micro fine may be useful. And going back to custom stone combos on paddles, a set with the same 1.4 mic. stone on both sides that could be textured differently would be interesting. Followed by a set with double .6 micron? I suppose the same could be done with two sets of the original combo, just not quite as cool.
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 weeks ago #12100

  • PhilipPasteur
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cbwx34 wrote:
It seems intuitive, but it's not.

???
I believe I said that it was intuitive to me. I am not sure that this is something that can be argued. It is. Of course, not everyone will feel the same. Something about having sharp edges and rubbing them against steel to get a fine finish just does not compute. Having a very smooth surface against the steel, now that just makes me feel better..
:woohoo:

But if your desire is to have a fine grit stone give you the finest "best polish" finish possible (that in some of the posts I got the impression that's what some people are after)... lapping/texturing it to a fine finish won't necessarily give you that, and actually in most cases won't. ... It goes to Clay's 3rd point that I just saw... a bit of texture helps the stone break down, develop a slurry, and provide a better finish.

I guess I missed the part about anyone wanting to get a finer finish by texturing. At least I did not get that impression. In any case, I can agree that there will be no finer finish at the edge obtainable with a given grit stone than when it is perfectly flat and smooth. I will go further than the "in most cases" and say that IHO, it is pretty much impossible to obtain a finer finish by *adding* texturing to a waterstone! If there is some perception that this is what I meant, I would like to correct that.


BTW, I think having mud (not slurry) will make the stones more aggressive, not result in a better finish.

From Clay:
Adding a tiny bit of texture before rubbing my waterstones together will speed the process of developing a slurry. This seem to only matter on my 5k/10k stones. The lower grit stones develop a slurry very quickly when rubbed together.

Nothing about a better finish. In fact, from memory, Tom recommended in his sharpening progression video for the Chosera stones to not develop mud on the finer stones by rubbing them together in order to allow one to get a better finish. In any case, I don't rub the 2K, 3K, 5K, or 10K stones together before using them. I only do that when I am done... then rinse off the mud produced before storing them. At these levels I am not really looking for aggressiveness. For the 5K and 10K stones, I spritz them with water, wipe them off with a paper towel, then spritz again and continue sharpening.
Obviously others may like to do things differently. This is simply something that works for me.
Phil

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Last Edit: 1 year 2 weeks ago by PhilipPasteur.
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 2 weeks ago #12157

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mark76 wrote:

The hypothesis is still (for most people here, I think) this doesn't impact the edge.

Just saw this. In jumping to Clay's excellent photos I must have missed it.

Just curious how you decided that most people here agreed with you Mark.
In light of Clay's work, I guess you may have to rethink that hypothesis.
Phil

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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 11 months 2 days ago #13270

  • mark76
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Hey all,

I wrote a blog post based on the discussion here about how ceramic stones may work. You can find it here: moleculepolishing.wordpress.com/2013/08/...edge-ceramic-stones/

I hope you enjoy the read. And many thanks to everyone who participated in this discussion and particularly Clay, of course!
Last Edit: 11 months 2 days ago by mark76.
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 11 months 2 days ago #13271

  • PhilipPasteur
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Mark,
Interesting read.
I left a comment.
Phil

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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 11 months 2 days ago #13272

  • wickededge
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Nice write up Mark, thanks for sharing it here. I would add that there are at least several different techniques for creating ceramic stones and that the 1200/1600 series we sell are created in a 'vitrified bond' and have a very different set of characteristics than our micro-fine series which are sintered. It appears the the 1200/1600 series is a matrix of abrasive where the bonding agent has been vitrified but the particles have not been heated enough to fuse. I'll see if I can get more information from our supplier about their process though they are pretty secretive about it.
--Clay Allison
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