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Sharpener and Accessory Maintenance

TOPIC: Chosera stone maintenance

Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 4 months ago #11414

  • mark76
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Tom,

In your video you use a 600 grit Atoma for your 10K Shapton and a 1200 grit Atoma for your 10K Chosera. (If I remember it correctly - saw the video this morning.) Is there a reason for this?

If you could buy only one Atoma for flattening your high-grit stones, which one would it be?
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 4 months ago #11422

  • PhilipPasteur
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Obviously I am not Tom and I can't comment on the Atoma plates as I don't have any.
I can tell you that I have found the 10K Chosera to be much softer than the Shapton stone.
When I lap with the DMT diamond plates, it gets deeper scratches. Because of this I need to re-texture it with finer plates. Probably if you had the patience to lap with the 1200, (or just don't let you stones go too far), using the 1200 might just let you get away without texturing at all... and save needless wear on that soft, and relatively expensive, stone.

Just my guess. I am curious to see what Tom says...
Phil

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Last Edit: 1 year 4 months ago by PhilipPasteur.
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 4 months ago #11423

  • Geocyclist
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Phil,

Good point about checking with a straight edge. If they is a high spot this would definitely show. If there is a shallow spot, can you see this with a straight edge?

How often do you lap yours? Do check first to see if they need it or just do it for good measure?
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 4 months ago #11424

  • PhilipPasteur
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If you hold the stone and straightedge with a light behind them, you can see pretty small dips.
I have also used a piece of printer paper as a feeler gauge.... of course a gap would have to be pretty serious to find it that way. I also have a set of feeler gauges that I have dragged out to check them. The thinnest one is 0.0015" thick. If that one will not slide at any place between the stone and straightedge... I am not worrying about flatness.

No I don't lap that often. I do what you do before each sharpening and rub the stones against each other under running water. I have only done the 5K and 10K choseras twice in their lifetimes. I have done the 400 through 3K three times (maybe 4). That is quite a few knives.. The coarser stones wear faster. Because you don't really ever use the top end of the stones on the WEPS, I also have marked the stones, and flip them end to end each time I sharpen. This helps distribute the wear. Eventually they will need to be flattened. Keep an eye on them... I check them more than I lap them. Fortunately, I use the diamonds for the bulk of the metal removal. The Choseras have it pretty easy...
;)
Phil

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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 4 months ago #11478

  • mark76
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I find this a very intriguing discussion... On the one hand there are people who say that it really doesn't matter with how coarse a diamond plate you lap your high-grit stones, on the other hand there are people who say it matters very much (Tom! Where are you?).

I happened to have asked this question at another forum as well. And now I asked it again with links to other threads: www.chefknivestogoforum.com/how-to-flatt...es-cont-d-t2886.html

It would be nice if we could join forum forces. I don't know how, but let's see.

At the end of the day it would be nice if we could get an answer to the question many ppl seem to have. I have experimented already and hoped to be able to see differences between scratches made by a 15K Shapton lapped on an Atoma 140 and a 15K Shapton lapped afterwards on a 1K WE diamond stone. The trouble is, these scratches are tiny... much too tiny for my (supposedly) 400x microscope.

So who's got empirical evidence? Or a very convincing theory?
Last Edit: 1 year 4 months ago by mark76.
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 4 months ago #11481

  • PhilipPasteur
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A couple of things have come up in discussion lately that I would like to mention before I tell you what I think about this and why. The form a bit of support for my "hypothesis" . I don't thin you will find a real theory, as a theory is based upon previously proven facts. I have not seen anything other than opinions so far.

First I wanted to bring up a quote that I posted from Sal over at Spyderco. Keep in mind that Spyderco started by making ceramic sharpeners. I will paraphrase as I don't have the exact quote. He said that all of the ceramics had the same grit and the differences in performance were due to some different binders and diamond texturing.

I also remind folks of the SEM nanographs of steel after stropping. The SEM images of the edge of the edge were pretty amazing. There were sub-micron folds and many different kinds of what perfectionists would call defects.

If we lap a waterstone with something like the 140 Atoma, or the XXC DMT plate we are going to end up with some pretty serious scratches left when we are done. In use those scratches approach the edge of the edge with sharp shoulders from many different directions (depending on the direction used when lapping). I can easily see that this will cause significantly different results than a very flat surface would. Recall the differences in the ceramics that , for instance, Spyderco sells, mostly caused by texturing. Why would the fine waterstones not be affected in a similar fashion. I am not talking about something that would be detected in a 10X loupe. So maybe the effect is not huge, but I think that logically it is something that has to be considered. When you get a stone from Shapton or the Chosera stones, they are very smooth. There are no large scratches to be seen, even at 400X I don't see scratches in a new stone. I have looked. Can we not assume that this is the way that they intend the stones to be used?

OK, again, maybe this is not something that grossly changes what the stone does, but it is hard to argue that the intent of the manufacturer is not to have the stones used in a quite smooth condition.

So, I think that it is all a matter of how OCD you want to get. If you want to imitate the condition that the stone arrives in as closely as possible, you finish lapping with as fine a grit as is practical.

I am not sure that this gives you an answer that you want to hear Mark, as I know you are trying to decide what (if anything) to buy. The thing is, asking folks like Mark at CKTG or Tom to give a definitive answer is in reality just asking for their opinion. Their opinion will be based on empirical data and long experience, but it is an opinion just the same. What you need to decide is whether the "potential" differences are really important to you. If what you are doing gets you where you want to be, maybe it is good enough.

I think the answers you got on the CKTG forum pretty much indicated that no one was all that concerned about this.

BTW, I am still on the edge about the 400 and 1200 Atoma plates... just because they might be a little better than what I have. This IS an example of compulsive behavior... or at least an addiction to sharpening stuff... The proverbial rabbit hole syndrome..

:woohoo: :evil:

So the question is... do you want that Atoma plate... if so grab one. You are the only one that can satisfy yourself as to whether it makes a difference in your edges!! No amount of educated opinions nor logic can give you that answer.
Phil

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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 4 months ago #11493

  • KenBuzbee
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I agree with you, Phil, with one additional thought. Before using water stones, I wet them and rub them together. This would pretty much eliminate any differences left from lapping at different grits (within reason ;) ) If the plates I lap on are rougher than the stone, the stones will be smoothed out. If the plates I lap on are smoother that the stones, it will rough them up.

Using texturing on a ceramic (as per Sal) is if different than the end result on water stones due to the wear..

Ken
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Last Edit: 1 year 4 months ago by KenBuzbee.
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 4 months ago #11496

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KenBuzbee wrote:
I agree with you, Phil, with one additional thought. Before using water stones, I wet them and rub them together. This would pretty much eliminate any differences left from lapping at different grits (within reason ;) )

Within reason is the key phrase... The Atoma 140 is pretty coarse though, as is the DMY XXC. The scratches from these (at least my XXC) last a good while, even with rubbing the stones before use. That fact was why I bought several finer grit plates to use after lapping with the coarse plate.
If the plates I lap on are rougher than the stone, the stones will be smoothed out. If the plates I lap on are smoother that the stones, it will rough them up

Isn't this just the opposite of what happens ???
Using texturing on a ceramic (as per Sal) is if different than the end result on water stones due to the wear..

Over time this is true, the waterstones will lose any texture much faster than the ceramic stones,but the point was only that texturing makes a difference at that edge.
Phil

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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 4 months ago #11498

  • KenBuzbee
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If the plates I lap on are rougher than the stone, the stones will be smoothed out. If the plates I lap on are smoother that the stones, it will rough them up
PhilipPasteur wrote:
Isn't this just the opposite of what happens ???

I struggled with the wording on that and still blew it. ;) More coffee was needed. The edited version, "If the plates I lap on are rougher than the stone, the stones will be smoothed out when they are rubbed together. If the plates I lap on are smoother that the stones, it will rough them up when they are rubbed together
Using texturing on a ceramic (as per Sal) is if different than the end result on water stones due to the wear..
PhilipPasteur wrote:
Over time this is true, the waterstones will lose any texture much faster than the ceramic stones,but the point was only that texturing makes a difference at that edge.

I'll trust you on that. I haven't tried lapping with the coarsest plates but the ones I have used didn't (that I could discern) leave any residual texturing.

Ken
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Re: Chosera stone maintenance 1 year 4 months ago #11509

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mark76 wrote:
Tom,

In your video you use a 600 grit Atoma for your 10K Shapton and a 1200 grit Atoma for your 10K Chosera. (If I remember it correctly - saw the video this morning.) Is there a reason for this?

If you could buy only one Atoma for flattening your high-grit stones, which one would it be?

Sorry guys - I've been busy!

The reason I use the different plates is to texture the surface of the stones to enhance their performance. Phillip explained it quite well. B) It does change the way the stone feels aggressiveness-wise, and I have seen differences in the finishes. I mentioned the 600 stock in the video because it is a diamond plate every WEPS user will have, but used the 1K WEPS diamond.

Also, you don't need to use several lapping plates, but when you start getting involved in the WEPS sports more, it becomes useful. If I had to recommend only one lapping plate, it would be the 600. That will lap almost the entire range of Choseras, and leaves the "second best" finish on the 10K in particular. FWIW, I use the following lapping progression:

400, 600, 800, 1K - Atoma 140
1,500, 2K - Atoma 400
3K, 5K - Atoma 600
8K, 10K, 12K, 15K, 16K, 30K - 1,200 Atoma
Tom Blodgett
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