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TOPIC: Ceramic Paddles

Re: Ceramic Paddles 2 years 2 months ago #3200

  • eatyourroadkill
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Hi Bud

I talked with Kyle. He suggested I use them for awhile and see if they break-in i.e. there should be no more powder coming off eventually. Still seems a little unusual but I will sharpen all my kitchen knives and a couple folding knives this weekend and finish with the ceramics and see how it works.
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Re: Ceramic Paddles 2 years 2 months ago #3202

  • DennisHibar
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I am going to email these pics to WE for some thoughts. I figured pictures are worth a thousand words (or at least more than a dozen, perhaps!). Frankly, I just don't know if they are supposed to be like this. I have used them in sharpening four knives. The knives seemed to come out great. Just not sure about the lifespan of these stones ... since they are unlike any other ceramic stone with which I am familiar. They are certainly difficult to clean with the pitting holding debris. You can see in the 1600 stones, some steel discoloration even after cleaning with a toothbrush and Barkeepers Friend. I am even more confused since razoredgeknives indicated his are completely smooth and hard. Anyway, here are pics of mine (pitting is easier to see in the 1200 stones due to the color, but visible in both):





Anyway, as I said, I will email the pics to them. Any thoughts here would be appreciated.

My knives (updated 7/20/2014)
Dennis in PA
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Re: Ceramic Paddles 2 years 2 months ago #3203

  • eatyourroadkill
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Hi Josh

Wondering when you received your ceramic paddles? Are they part of the batch that just shipped or an earlier batch? Did you ever got a lot of white powder when you first used them?

Thanks ..
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Re: Ceramic Paddles 2 years 2 months ago #3204

  • razoredgeknives
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Yeah, Dennis that is definitely not how mine are... but since I have only ever had this set I guess I can't accurately say that they are "not normal" for sure, but I will say that I have never seen any other posts here about this issue until this batch...

And no, I did not get my ceramics recently..... have had them since December of last year. Been on these forums for about 3-4 months. I will try to post pics of nine this evening.
Last Edit: 2 years 2 months ago by razoredgeknives.
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Re: Ceramic Paddles 2 years 2 months ago #3206

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Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum and to Wicked Edge. Did a little things backward as I ordered the ceramic paddles first before ordering the sharpener. I did so when the latest shipment became available. Having read a number of the posts concerning pitting and other possible anomalies I decided to take mine out of the box and examin them. Keep in mine I just received them in the last ten days. They are absolutely flawless. No pitting, craters or anything. They look completely different than some of the pictures posted. Again no pitting or anything.
Last Edit: 2 years 1 month ago by WayneNicklin.
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Re: Ceramic Paddles 2 years 2 months ago #3208

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DennisHibar wrote:
I am going to email these pics to WE for some thoughts. I figured pictures are worth a thousand words (or at least more than a dozen, perhaps!). Frankly, I just don't know if they are supposed to be like this. I have used them in sharpening four knives. The knives seemed to come out great. Just not sure about the lifespan of these stones ... since they are unlike any other ceramic stone with which I am familiar. They are certainly difficult to clean with the pitting holding debris. You can see in the 1600 stones, some steel discoloration even after cleaning with a toothbrush and Barkeepers Friend. I am even more confused since razoredgeknives indicated his are completely smooth and hard. Anyway, here are pics of mine (pitting is easier to see in the 1200 stones due to the color, but visible in both):





Anyway, as I said, I will email the pics to them. Any thoughts here would be appreciated.

Hey Guys,

New guy on the block here, first hello to all. Second I just received a set of ceramic 1200/1600 stones from WE today and they are exactly like the pictures posted above in the quote. I am just jumping in and I will follow the lead on this issue. I actually just finished an Endura 4 and they seemed to work fairly well but the pits are certainly clogged (lot of dust off both grits) up now. They also are very hard to clean out. Hopefully this is just a peculiar run of material.

Thanks!
Steven Pinson (AKA: SPIN at "A Better Edge")
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Re: Ceramic Paddles 2 years 2 months ago #3209

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Thanks for checking on that Wayne... It was the same with me when I received mine. And to answer a previous question, no, I don't remember ever getting a bunch of powder off of them to where the knife edge was "shaving" away the stone - I don't believe this should be happening.

Just to clear this up, I have taken some pictures for you all of my ceramic paddles as promised... It appears as if they are pitted at a first glance, but when you look closer (and even feel them) you will see that they are definitely NOT. In fact, I have included a couple microscope (230x) of them, including one at an angle (which should show shadows - but it does not). Hope this helps...





Below: ~60x


Below: 230x


Below: At an angle


In conclusion, I believe that this is just the metal filling in the pores of the stone (even though these have actually been cleaned w/ bonami). Hope this helps clear some things up so you guys can get taken care of!

* You can see that these are obviously different from the pitting in the stones above this post and in prior posts. These are definitely not pitted.
Last Edit: 2 years 2 months ago by razoredgeknives.
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Re: Ceramic Paddles 2 years 2 months ago #3213

  • BobNash
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Hi Everyone :cheer: -
Fallen behind a bit on this conversation but I'll chime in and see if I can be of any help at all. It may be long since I've been out for a couple days here...

First - I want to point out that it seems right now like these issues are only affecting a very limited number of stones in this last production run, since the posts on this thread are pretty limited in number and some people who just got them are reporting no issues - Whew! And hopefully only a few of them are as bad as Bud's were.

Next, as to cleaning these and most ceramics. Be sure not to use any thing warm to clean the Wicked Edge ceramic handles. They are assembled using a hot glue adhesive so if the stone heats enough you can release it from the handle tray; easy enough to reattach but not so great if it falls:ohmy:. Also, Wicked Edge doesn't recommend using water to clean them (never tried it on mine so can't say about them bubbling like neutralizing an acid with baking soda - though that seems very odd and no one else has mentioned it). I'm sure there is probably a post on maintenance hidden somewhere here in the forum though I haven't been able to find it - what they do recommend is using a rubber eraser, pink school type works great but you can also get a superaser (brand name) or Super Rust Eraser. Neither of them or the pink eraser is going to get stuff out of the pits very well, though they or the pink eraser will clean up the remainder of your ceramics really nicely.



So here are my thoughts and experience:

My WE ceramic stones look much like razoredge's stones (nice pics by the way), like they might be pitted but it is color variation in the ceramic and they are totally smooth. I've been using them for a while now and no cupping. Other items I discuss more below.

Pitting issue - big Thanks to David and Dennis for posting up some photos as that has been super helpful - someone said like the moon and that is an apt description. This pitting in my experience is not normal in these stones and in my time at Wicked Edge and with my customers since no one has mentioned this issue. (Clay has seen many more production runs so perhaps it has come up in the past though I talked with Kay today and she doesn't recall it). That being said - I agree with Zig that it should not affect the performance of the stone. Many other stones and plates have discontinuous abrasive - many DMT diamond plates, Atoma diamond plates are two good examples. Since the pits are surrounded by surface level ceramic which is moving across the blade, the honing effect should be the same as if it were continuous. I'd watch them to make sure it doesn't seem they are getting larger or more numerous though - particularly if you continue to get a lot of powder off the stones. If that were happening, I'd contact Wicked Edge and see what they recommend.

Roughness - I don't really recall if there was some roughness to my stones when I first used them, if there is it went away fairly quickly. Rubbing together as Zig suggested may accelerate the smoothing if you do have some rough ones. If it doesn't smooth up with use, I'd call or email Wicked Edge to see what they are suggesting - right now it is probably going to be to give them more break in time. I would thing that after 10- 15 knives you shouldn't be experiencing any roughness.

Powdering issue - the stones when they are new do frequently have some powdery finish that comes off on your fingers and on the knife (WE cleans the back sides on assembly to make sure the adhesive is bonding to the stone). In my experience that powder goes away pretty quickly. The hardness of Wicked Edge's ceramics doesn't compare to a lot of other superfine ceramics. I think Spyderco rates their ceramics at better than 9 on the mohs scale (9.3 if my memory is working), I don't know the manufacturing spec on WE's stones but I imagine that they are in the mid 8 range (knives can be as high as 8 I think), so Spyderco's are about twice as hard. On these stones it is possible to shave off the material with your knife edge as you work, particularly working a leading edge stroke (into the knife). I notice this most frequently on my curved ceramics trying to work them into a tight spot or working the corners of my flat stones. Working trailing edge (up and out) I may have gotten some powder at first but it went away quickly as I don't really recall it. One thing for sure, the vitrified bonding in the stone shouldn't be having the issue that Bud described - out of flat after only 12 knives:( . If you are having an issue that dramatic then call Wicked Edge and have them warranty the stones for you. Otherwise it sounds like from roadkill's conversation with Kyle, they are saying to give them time to break in (just keep an eye on them for cupping is my advice).

Chipping issue - Dustin is reporting some chipping on his edges. It is certainly possible this is happening from the ceramics though I haven't experienced this myself. There are other possible causes too most likely of which in my mind is that what is happening is that the ceramics are uncovering or exposing chips that are already there - much like what happens with scratches in the bevels - the finer grits and strops often uncover the deeper scratches that have been hidden by earlier work. (There is a really great photo series showing that effect on the forum - another one I couldn't remember where it was to link). I just recently had a customer who was having the same apparent problem and he came up with a great test to see if it was the ceramics or an artifact of earlier sharpening or use. Mitch sharpened through the diamonds, ceramics and his 3.5 strops. Then he went back and with his 600 grit stone, removed the cutting edge much like Clay does with the file in one of his videos. His technique was to leave the knife in the clamp with all the same settings, then lay the stone on top of the cutting edge and lightly run it up and down the blade until it would no longer catch or cut anything. Then he used his 600 grit diamonds to quickly raise up a burr from both sides then progressed through his 800/1000 and 1200/1600 and checked the edge. In his case the chips were then gone. Don't know if you'll have the same result, but it could help us zero in on the ceramics as the potential culprit. (also a fast way to get out those little chips you can feel when cutting or with an edge tester but can't see easily if you find you have some that won't go away)

Last is a technique suggestion following on Zigs. The ceramics definitely have a different feel from the other stones. For me, I find it to work best to apply really no pressure other than the weight of the stone leaning on the knife. I do this on all grits after I have created the cutting edge - particularly in the higher grits my pressure gets lighter and lighter (with exception of strops depending upon circumstances). So I am basically just lifting the stone across the blade. I only really apply pressure if I am focusing on a rough spot that won't go away, or am trying to re-raise a burr. This is one of the real advantages of the Wicked Edge over Edge Pro and a lot of other systems - it is really easy to be light and easy on the edge as you are not lifting the knife or the stone. I found that if I used too much pressure later in my sharpening the edges would sometimes be completely ruined and I'd have to back up and start again. It also helps prevent getting multiple facets on the bevel.

Well - that was a lot:P, and hopefully useful. Just remember that Wicked Edge stands behind the product 100% so if after some more work and breaking in, the ceramics just aren't giving you the results you want contact them. I'm also available by mobile 970-903-9288

And just to confirm, Clay is out of the office with no internet back sometime next week so I'm sure he'll chime in then too. I'm off to a show for the weekend so won't be back on the forum much 'til Tuesday but I'll try to follow up then to see what is happening and jump back in!

Bob :side:
Some of the edges I've sharpened on the WE
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Re: Ceramic Paddles 2 years 2 months ago #3219

  • DennisHibar
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Josh ...

Thanks for showing your ceramics. All I can say is than on mine (at least the 1200s ... it is not discoloration, but pitting. I can detect the "craters" with a pin or other pointed object.

Bob ...

Thanks for your input as well. However ... where does WE recommend not cleaning the ceramics with water? I can't find that. I do recall come conversation about using various abrasive cleansers ... but don't remember, nor can I find, any recommendation not to use water. I clean all my accessory stones with water (of course cool and I don't submerse them), cleanser, and a toothbrush. Anyway, hope to get definitive word from WE after the holidays. I can only assume that mine and the few others reported here are just anomalies .... since considering the large number of ceramics which went out in this last batch ... we are not seeing a great number of reported problems posted. Then again, not sure now many of the recipients of the ceramics participate in the forum.

My knives (updated 7/20/2014)
Dennis in PA
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Re: Ceramic Paddles 2 years 2 months ago #3220

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Hey guys ! I've been away busy with life and work lately and haven't had a chance to catch up on things here in the fourm. Having come in on the tail end of this conversation and not having received my ceramics as of today, I'm surprised to read and SEE the dramatic difference of the stones from the first ceramics to this latest batch. Reading about edges being chipped, the white powder and flaking of the material concerns me. I have no doubt the concerns will be addressed and properly handled by Wicked Edge but until then, I'm not sure I want to use these stones on my knives or even attempt a "break-in" procedure.
I guess my question is, did the supplier, who made the first batch, make these stones and if so, have they changed the proccess or materials in making the second batch? Was quality control compromised by the expedited demand for the ceramics?
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