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TOPIC: My first week with the WEPS

My first week with the WEPS 2 months 3 days ago #18211

  • uofaengr
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Did this a couple weeks ago but just now getting a chance to post. I did the main edge first and reclamped to get the tip. With the knife being so long I rested it on the base and it held sturdy for the tip. The owner had said he used a buffing wheel on this knife and the transition was noticeably rounded. I think it turned out pretty well compared to how it looked in the beginning.





My question now is do others check their angle between grits on the diamonds? I've done that on some knives and have found variance nearly as much as 0.4 degrees or so. Would the SWAT jigs be a quick remedy for this or do you not worry about it? I'm using the old arms by the way and it can get tedious tightening and untightening. I get pretty good polishes but have wondered if the angles not being exact have led to more scratches remaining. It's difficult to check the angle on the ceramics since obviously there's no metal to stick to and they tend to want to rock a little bit. On the strops I've been lowering the angle 2 degrees on the past several knives I've done. All the edges are laser sharp even when not checking the angles. The 1k grit edge on my more and more broken in stones leaves a satisfying, sticky sharp edge that makes you all giddy inside. I'd love to see a video demo of the swat jigs with an angle cube and just how they work in general.
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My first week with the WEPS 2 months 3 days ago #18212

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uofaengr wrote:
My question now is do others check their angle between grits on the diamonds? I've done that on some knives and have found variance nearly as much as 0.4 degrees or so. Would the SWAT jigs be a quick remedy for this or do you not worry about it? I'm using the old arms by the way and it can get tedious tightening and untightening. I get pretty good polishes but have wondered if the angles not being exact have led to more scratches remaining. It's difficult to check the angle on the ceramics since obviously there's no metal to stick to and they tend to want to rock a little bit. On the strops I've been lowering the angle 2 degrees on the past several knives I've done. All the edges are laser sharp even when not checking the angles. The 1k grit edge on my more and more broken in stones leaves a satisfying, sticky sharp edge that makes you all giddy inside. I'd love to see a video demo of the swat jigs with an angle cube and just how they work in general.

Great job man! yeah it definitely turned out well! One thing I like to do when the transition is rounded out on tantos is to take your lower grit stones (or belt sander) and re-shape your tanto tip/transition by grinding perpendicular into the edge. Then you can sharpen for a nice clean tanto transition. Now, on to your questions...

I would say that after you check the variance in your stones one good time, you won't need to check them every time. My diamonds tend to be very uniform in how they were mounted, but others (like Tom - tcmeyer) have reported that they were mounted very "crookedly" to where one side was higher than the other. But the plates themselves were designed to be consecutively thinner so that it ever so slightly widens your angle with each transition (I am talking a very minuscule amount here). And yes, if you are wanting to adjust the for the width of your stones the SWAT is something you need to use (for speed's sake)... but I find that I don't need it because I know how my stones perform (even though I have it).

I will have to see, but maybe I can knock out a video soon of what you are wanting. Oh, and one of the keys that I have found with the scratches is to avoid the 100/200's if you can... if not then spend a LOT of time with the 400's to remove those deeper scratches, or they will reveal themselves at higher grits (they are very deep).
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Re:My first week with the WEPS 2 months 1 day ago #18228

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razoredgeknives wrote:
uofaengr wrote:
My question now is do others check their angle between grits on the diamonds? I've done that on some knives and have found variance nearly as much as 0.4 degrees or so. Would the SWAT jigs be a quick remedy for this or do you not worry about it? I'm using the old arms by the way and it can get tedious tightening and untightening. I get pretty good polishes but have wondered if the angles not being exact have led to more scratches remaining. It's difficult to check the angle on the ceramics since obviously there's no metal to stick to and they tend to want to rock a little bit. On the strops I've been lowering the angle 2 degrees on the past several knives I've done. All the edges are laser sharp even when not checking the angles. The 1k grit edge on my more and more broken in stones leaves a satisfying, sticky sharp edge that makes you all giddy inside. I'd love to see a video demo of the swat jigs with an angle cube and just how they work in general.

Great job man! yeah it definitely turned out well! One thing I like to do when the transition is rounded out on tantos is to take your lower grit stones (or belt sander) and re-shape your tanto tip/transition by grinding perpendicular into the edge. Then you can sharpen for a nice clean tanto transition. Now, on to your questions...

I would say that after you check the variance in your stones one good time, you won't need to check them every time. My diamonds tend to be very uniform in how they were mounted, but others (like Tom - tcmeyer) have reported that they were mounted very "crookedly" to where one side was higher than the other. But the plates themselves were designed to be consecutively thinner so that it ever so slightly widens your angle with each transition (I am talking a very minuscule amount here). And yes, if you are wanting to adjust the for the width of your stones the SWAT is something you need to use (for speed's sake)... but I find that I don't need it because I know how my stones perform (even though I have it).

I will have to see, but maybe I can knock out a video soon of what you are wanting. Oh, and one of the keys that I have found with the scratches is to avoid the 100/200's if you can... if not then spend a LOT of time with the 400's to remove those deeper scratches, or they will reveal themselves at higher grits (they are very deep).

Thanks for the kind words. I sharpened a Contego tonight and will post pics later, but I again checked the angles between stones and even though you said they're designed to make a wider angle, I found most every stone change to get more narrow or acute than the previous angle.

I sharpened at 18 dps and I found the variance to be as much as half a degree. Got readings of about 18.5 degrees and got some at 17.6 or so. Sometimes less than 18 on the left hand stone and .3 degrees or so wider than 18 on the right hand stone at the same grit. The ceramics were the biggest variance as they were about 17.5 degrees. I guess my question is why do I only need to check the variance once? If I'm trying to get a consistent 18 dps throughout the diamond stones then I still have to put the cube on to readjust. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding.

I wouldn't mind seeing a video on the swat jig if you ever get the time, and I'm surprised that there hasn't been an official video demonstrating this accessory. On the Edge Pro you have the drill stop collar trick that makes changing stones a breeze and something like this would be useful on the WEPS. I'm not sure if the swat jigs will even work with the old Gen 2 arms.

Now for a Contego pic. I tried stropping at one degree lower rather than two this time just to see. This thick blade turned out to be one of my best edges period on this system in terms of polish and sharpness. This thick blade was whittling hair and slicing through phonebook paper with fast swipes like it wasn't even there.

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Re:My first week with the WEPS 2 months 1 day ago #18229

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Hopefully Josh will make the video on the SWAT (VSTA) accessory, but meanwhile you can read about it in detail at a forum post I made about a week ago: www.wickededgeusa.com/forum/10-advanced-...kness-stone-adapters

Josh's point is that he's checked his stones and he knows that they don't need any micro-adjustments.

Also as Josh says, the stones (at least the set I have) typically get progressively thinner as you go up in grits and therefor lean farther from the vertical when placed against the edge. The angle should theoretically get higher with each step. I don't think it's normal for you to see such large angular changes, especially a decrease in angle! Maybe there's something amiss with your stones or your setup. The bad stone which Josh referred to had the diamond plate mounted wrong and it was sitting high on one end. It took me three years to recognize it.

I suggest that you check the thickness (face to face) of each of your stones with a caliper and compare one end to the other. If there's a difference in thickness, it'll give you a wrong angle. If the face of the stone isn't parallel to the rod, it won't cut with a constant angle. And if there's a difference in thickness, the rod can't be parallel to both sides. A difference of only 0.010" in thickness from one end to the other will create a 0.1 degree error.

If your stones are all correct, I think that after you've settled in to use the VSTA's, you'll find that they are a solution to your problem and take only a few seconds extra with each grit change.

Whenever I make an AngleCube reading that doesn't seem right, I'll lift and then replace the AngleCube three or more times, to let the sensor settle in properly. You can't get valid readings by making small adjustments. Kind of like making a small reticle adjustment on your riflescope. Hmmm... I haven't tried tapping on the 'Cube with a spent case. :P
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Re:My first week with the WEPS 2 months 1 day ago #18234

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tcmeyer wrote:
Hopefully Josh will make the video on the SWAT (VSTA) accessory, but meanwhile you can read about it in detail at a forum post I made about a week ago: www.wickededgeusa.com/forum/10-advanced-...kness-stone-adapters

Josh's point is that he's checked his stones and he knows that they don't need any micro-adjustments.

Also as Josh says, the stones (at least the set I have) typically get progressively thinner as you go up in grits and therefor lean farther from the vertical when placed against the edge. The angle should theoretically get higher with each step. I don't think it's normal for you to see such large angular changes, especially a decrease in angle! Maybe there's something amiss with your stones or your setup. The bad stone which Josh referred to had the diamond plate mounted wrong and it was sitting high on one end. It took me three years to recognize it.

I suggest that you check the thickness (face to face) of each of your stones with a caliper and compare one end to the other. If there's a difference in thickness, it'll give you a wrong angle. If the face of the stone isn't parallel to the rod, it won't cut with a constant angle. And if there's a difference in thickness, the rod can't be parallel to both sides. A difference of only 0.010" in thickness from one end to the other will create a 0.1 degree error.

If your stones are all correct, I think that after you've settled in to use the VSTA's, you'll find that they are a solution to your problem and take only a few seconds extra with each grit change.

Whenever I make an AngleCube reading that doesn't seem right, I'll lift and then replace the AngleCube three or more times, to let the sensor settle in properly. You can't get valid readings by making small adjustments. Kind of like making a small reticle adjustment on your riflescope. Hmmm... I haven't tried tapping on the 'Cube with a spent case. :P

That's exactly what I meant, thanks Tom! The point is, that if you know how your stones perform (i.e. angle adjustments needed) then you don't have to re-evaluate every time, especially with diamond plates (because they don't dish).

I do the same with my angle cube to ensure I am getting an accurate reading!

So Tom, what would you suggest about fixing your stone's mounting angle if it is off? It may be helpful for those that need the tips/pointers...
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Re:My first week with the WEPS 2 months 1 day ago #18235

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Tom, thanks for the detailed response. I understand what you mean about the Angle Cube. We find ourselves looking for pinpoint accuracy out of a device that I think is only listed of having an accuracy of +/- 0.2 degrees so I basically ignore anything in the hundredths column. I lift the stone at least 3, if not 4 times to get the tenth of the decimal to remain consistent at the least 2 out of 3 attempts.

What I'd like to do is mount a knife in the vise sometime this week, start with the 50 grit stone and set it to an arbitrary angle such as 20 degrees. Then I'm going to record what each angle reads as I move up through the stones. No actual sharpening, just checking the angles on the stones. I'll post my findings, and see what you guys think. Just by looking at them, the plates on the 800/1000 grit stones look thinner than the rest so what you're saying makes sense.

I mark my stones on each end. One is 1A/1B and the other is 2A/2B. Each time I sharpen I rotate them end to end and left side to right side to make sure the whole stone is getting used. I picked this tip up off the forum here. I'll note which stone yielded which reading in my findings. It looks like even if I wanted to use the swat jigs, I'd have to upgrade the arms and sigh, that's another $200 invested.

On a side note, I have done a few kitchen knives sort of speeding through the grits from 100 to 1000 grit. Not really speeding, but not rechecking the angle if you know what I mean. Anyway, I've gotten (especially since the stones have broken in) some really, really sharp edges when I'm done with 1000 grit so I just can't believe that my angles are getting more acute as I progress like I was stating earlier. I don't have a microscope or anything, but the edges have that perfectly crisp, sticky feel that is really smooth going through phonebook paper. So who knows...
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Re:My first week with the WEPS 2 months 1 day ago #18236

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uofaengr wrote:
What I'd like to do is mount a knife in the vise sometime this week, start with the 50 grit stone and set it to an arbitrary angle such as 20 degrees. Then I'm going to record what each angle reads as I move up through the stones. No actual sharpening, just checking the angles on the stones. I'll post my findings, and see what you guys think. Just by looking at them, the plates on the 800/1000 grit stones look thinner than the rest so what you're saying makes sense.

I mark my stones on each end. One is 1A/1B and the other is 2A/2B. Each time I sharpen I rotate them end to end and left side to right side to make sure the whole stone is getting used. I picked this tip up off the forum here. I'll note which stone yielded which reading in my findings. It looks like even if I wanted to use the swat jigs, I'd have to upgrade the arms and sigh, that's another $200 invested.

Before you do what you suggest above I would take a caliper, as Tom suggested, and make sure that your stones are mounted parallel to each other... otherwise your readings with the angle cube will be off.

Also, when it comes to the SWAT Clay has confirmed that they are designed to work with the old arms or the new... so you don't have to make a $200 investment to do that =)

If you want to check them out I can send you mine to borrow so you can see if you like them or not... just let me know via pm, I won't miss them too much =)
Last Edit: 2 months 1 day ago by razoredgeknives.
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Re:My first week with the WEPS 2 months 1 day ago #18238

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uofaengr wrote:
I sharpened at 18 dps and I found the variance to be as much as half a degree. Got readings of about 18.5 degrees and got some at 17.6 or so. Sometimes less than 18 on the left hand stone and .3 degrees or so wider than 18 on the right hand stone at the same grit. The ceramics were the biggest variance as they were about 17.5 degrees. I guess my question is why do I only need to check the variance once? If I'm trying to get a consistent 18 dps throughout the diamond stones then I still have to put the cube on to readjust. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding.

The problem is that many of us suffer from extreme OCD :lol: . Welcome to the club ;) .

Normal people sharpen their knives by hand or on a belt grinder (or have it done) without a guided angle device. There even a few degrees of deviation don't really matter. So the tiny amounts of deviation even the WEPS has in it don't matter at all in practice.

When I'm out for a hair splitting edge, and use my Chosera's or Shaptons and watch my edges through a microscope, I try to keep the angle differences withing half a degree. Less is almost impossible, humanly spoken.

And when I sharpen with the stock stones (diamonds and ceramic) I never use the angle cube, but trust solely on the angle bar of the WEPS.
Last Edit: 2 months 1 day ago by mark76.
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Re:My first week with the WEPS 2 months 1 day ago #18239

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razoredgeknives wrote:
uofaengr wrote:
What I'd like to do is mount a knife in the vise sometime this week, start with the 50 grit stone and set it to an arbitrary angle such as 20 degrees. Then I'm going to record what each angle reads as I move up through the stones. No actual sharpening, just checking the angles on the stones. I'll post my findings, and see what you guys think. Just by looking at them, the plates on the 800/1000 grit stones look thinner than the rest so what you're saying makes sense.

I mark my stones on each end. One is 1A/1B and the other is 2A/2B. Each time I sharpen I rotate them end to end and left side to right side to make sure the whole stone is getting used. I picked this tip up off the forum here. I'll note which stone yielded which reading in my findings. It looks like even if I wanted to use the swat jigs, I'd have to upgrade the arms and sigh, that's another $200 invested.

Before you do what you suggest above I would take a caliper, as Tom suggested, and make sure that your stones are mounted parallel to each other... otherwise your readings with the angle cube will be off.

Also, when it comes to the SWAT Clay has confirmed that they are designed to work with the old arms or the new... so you don't have to make a $200 investment to do that =)

If you want to check them out I can send you mine to borrow so you can see if you like them or not... just let me know via pm, I won't miss them too much =)

Thanks for the kind gesture, Josh! But like in Tom's detailed post showing how the SWATs are used, without the micro adjustment with the old arms, will they be as accurate?
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Re:My first week with the WEPS 2 months 1 day ago #18240

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mark76 wrote:
uofaengr wrote:
I sharpened at 18 dps and I found the variance to be as much as half a degree. Got readings of about 18.5 degrees and got some at 17.6 or so. Sometimes less than 18 on the left hand stone and .3 degrees or so wider than 18 on the right hand stone at the same grit. The ceramics were the biggest variance as they were about 17.5 degrees. I guess my question is why do I only need to check the variance once? If I'm trying to get a consistent 18 dps throughout the diamond stones then I still have to put the cube on to readjust. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding.

The problem is that many of us suffer from extreme OCD :lol: . Welcome to the club ;) .

Normal people sharpen their knives by hand or on a belt grinder (or have it done) without a guided angle device. There even a few degrees of deviation don't really matter. So the tiny amounts of deviation even the WEPS has in it don't matter at all in practice.

When I'm out for a hair splitting edge, and use my Chosera's or Shaptons and watch my edges through a microscope, I try to keep the angle differences withing half a degree. Less is almost impossible, humanly spoken.

And when I sharpen with the stock stones (diamonds and ceramic) I never use the angle cube, but trust solely on the angle bar of the WEPS.

Yes, I enjoy being OCD about things like this. It's all about what level of sharpness/perfection can you achieve? I'm not OCD to the point though where I'm using a microscope to really look at the edge. I'm just glad I've moved on past the point of super perfect mirror polishes or else I KNOW where all my time and money would be going now. :p

I love this system in that the basic kit is more than enough for the casual user to get screaming edges sharper than they'll ever really need, but for the true hobbyists and OCD freaks like us out there, we can trick out the system and add on accessories that make "this thing of ours" just that much more enjoyable.
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