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TOPIC: Thought on Hand Stropping with cheap compounds?

Re: Thought on Hand Stropping with cheap compounds? 2 years 5 months ago #2412

  • leomitch
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Curiouser and curiouser! said Alice. :ohmy:

Leo
Never go anywhere without your knife!
Gibbs rule number 9

Leo James Mitchell
Last Edit: 2 years 5 months ago by leomitch.
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Re: Thought on Hand Stropping with cheap compounds? 2 years 4 months ago #2415

  • KenSchwartz
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I believe I've mentioned this elsewhere, but for convenience, you might find these three articles I wrote useful in appreciating the difference in a well designed abrasive preparation vs some less well designed preparations - not necessarily cheaper, but more overpriced for what you are getting.

precisesharpening.blogspot.com/2010_12_01_archive.html

precisesharpening.blogspot.com/2011/01/p...f-three-quarter.html

precisesharpening.blogspot.com/2011/01/c...itride-scanning.html

To repeat a quote from one of the articles:

"Quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten."

---
Ken
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Re: Thought on Hand Stropping with cheap compounds? 2 years 4 months ago #2421

  • BassLakeDan
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KenSchwartz wrote:
I believe I've mentioned this elsewhere, but for convenience, you might find these three articles I wrote useful in appreciating the difference in a well designed abrasive preparation vs some less well designed preparations - not necessarily cheaper, but more overpriced for what you are getting.

precisesharpening.blogspot.com/2010_12_01_archive.html

precisesharpening.blogspot.com/2011/01/p...f-three-quarter.html

precisesharpening.blogspot.com/2011/01/c...itride-scanning.html

To repeat a quote from one of the articles:

"Quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten."

---
Ken

Ken,

Thanks for the above information and links, and no I guess I missed them if you had posted them elsewhere. Do I undersand where to obtain your products? Is that the product that Clay is sell here? Or do you have a separate ecommerce site somewhere?

You might remember me from my previous postings: I am the "cheaper is better guy". I came up with a mod for the WE arms that cost 5 bucks, I use red iron oxide strop compound that is used on my jewelry bench (another hobby of mine!) that costs even less ! You get the idea :cheer:

Well I am preparing another post for later today where I respond to the last 4 or five posts from others. Certain statement that some have made here have caught my eye, and I want to quote them and then respond with my humble thoughts.

One thing has happened here as a result of all this discussion that has thrown me into action: I feel that my position is not defensible if i have not put it to the test. I had a sample of a 2 micron Diamond compound from some years ago sitting on my bench. It was part of a polishing kit I obtained for working platinum jewelry. I never used it for that purpose, but did try it on a few knives. I recall that I saw very little difference in those knives after the red iron oxide polish, so hence never felt motivated to by more samples or other even finer grits. i just let the whole subject fade away. But now we are all here disussing this issue. We have all sorts of issues, points of view, various vendors of product, SEMs of blades and compounds. WHEW! it's enough to make my old head spin!

In the face of all that information I am nagged by the thought, "What if I am wrong and they are right?" After all, I never really tried any compounds that purport to being sub micron. So not to be on here just blowing a lot of hot air, and being an inveterate fiddler I decided to go ahead and obtain some samples and give it a go. We will see where that yellow brick road ends. One thing for sure -->>> it ain't cheap! I have been busy on the internet and have on order sets of blank handles, leather handles, various grits in a range from Clays 3.5 down to 2 to 1 to .5 (two samples that: one Chromium Oxide, One Diamond) to a no name brand .25 and now your nice looking .25 to compare it to.. so it has turned into a $$$ project, probably 300 so far and counting! Guess now a need a good 400x stereo microscope,.. Hummm, well there goes my "cheaper is better"

Will post later with some comments in response to others POV... It will take weeks to actually test my new toys, and of course I have to wait for Elk season to see if Clay is right about all this :cheer: ;) -Dan
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by BassLakeDan.
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Re: Thought on Hand Stropping with cheap compounds? 2 years 4 months ago #2430

  • KenSchwartz
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The compounds that I sell through Clay are the 0.125 micron CBN and the 0.050 and 0.025 micron polycrystaline diamond. Note the decimal points here - 0.025 is ten times finer than quarter micron. For other coarser compounds, just contact me via PM. My wife shares your hobby of jewelry making and I act as her tech support :)

Extrapolating your point of view based on a 2 micron diamond sample that didn't work out well - Well what can I say? Two microns is roughly equivalent to a 8,000 grit Japanese waterstone particle in size and this is commonly used for sharpening, so I strongly suspect that it was a 'cheap' quality product of unknown or low concentration, poorly formulated and at a low concentration. We need to give you a better perspective on 'the good stuff'. Waterstones go up to half micron particles, e.g., the Shapton 30k stones and produce a spectacular edge - without benefit of a clean room :) Natural stones sometimes even exceed this level of fineness and have been used for hundreds of years. I do have for instance 2 micron polycrystalline diamond and CBN products if you wanted to compare it to your earlier results too.

I'm quite confident, based on my own extensive experience and those of my customers that you are on the verge of an epiphany in your sharpening journey.

You might find this thread useful additional reading:

badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/181...bic-Boron-Nitride%29

The use of these fine compounds extends to both use on precision devices such as the WE as well as freehand and belt grinder applications. Compounds as fine as 0.5 microns have been used for years in these applications for refining knife edges. Indeed I can refer to Japanese literature dating back 50 years where this is recommended for final stropping on razors. This is true for both flat and convex grinds.

Let me know if I can help you in your studies.


---
Ken


BassLakeDan wrote:
KenSchwartz wrote:
I believe I've mentioned this elsewhere, but for convenience, you might find these three articles I wrote useful in appreciating the difference in a well designed abrasive preparation vs some less well designed preparations - not necessarily cheaper, but more overpriced for what you are getting.

precisesharpening.blogspot.com/2010_12_01_archive.html

precisesharpening.blogspot.com/2011/01/p...f-three-quarter.html

precisesharpening.blogspot.com/2011/01/c...itride-scanning.html

To repeat a quote from one of the articles:

"Quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten."

---
Ken

Ken,

Thanks for the above information and links, and no I guess I missed them if you had posted them elsewhere. Do I undersand where to obtain your products? Is that the product that Clay is sell here? Or do you have a separate ecommerce site somewhere?

You might remember me from my previous postings: I am the "cheaper is better guy". I came up with a mod for the WE arms that cost 5 bucks, I use red iron oxide strop compound that is used on my jewelry bench (another hobby of mine!) that costs even less ! You get the idea :cheer:

Well I am preparing another post for later today where I respond to the last 4 or five posts from others. Certain statement that some have made here have caught my eye, and I want to quote them and then respond with my humble thoughts.

One thing has happened here as a result of all this discussion that has thrown me into action: I feel that my position is not defensible if i have not put it to the test. I had a sample of a 2 micron Diamond compound from some years ago sitting on my bench. It was part of a polishing kit I obtained for working platinum jewelry. I never used it for that purpose, but did try it on a few knives. I recall that I saw very little difference in those knives after the red iron oxide polish, so hence never felt motivated to by more samples or other even finer grits. i just let the whole subject fade away. But now we are all here disussing this issue. We have all sorts of issues, points of view, various vendors of product, SEMs of blades and compounds. WHEW! it's enough to make my old head spin!

In the face of all that information I am nagged by the thought, "What if I am wrong and they are right?" After all, I never really tried any compounds that purport to being sub micron. So not to be on here just blowing a lot of hot air, and being an inveterate fiddler I decided to go ahead and obtain some samples and give it a go. We will see where that yellow brick road ends. One thing for sure -->>> it ain't cheap! I have been busy on the internet and have on order sets of blank handles, leather handles, various grits in a range from Clays 3.5 down to 2 to 1 to .5 (two samples that: one Chromium Oxide, One Diamond) to a no name brand .25 and now your nice looking .25 to compare it to.. so it has turned into a $$$ project, probably 300 so far and counting! Guess now a need a good 400x stereo microscope,.. Hummm, well there goes my "cheaper is better"

Will post later with some comments in response to others POV... It will take weeks to actually test my new toys, and of course I have to wait for Elk season to see if Clay is right about all this :cheer: ;) -Dan
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Re: Thought on Hand Stropping with cheap compounds? 2 years 4 months ago #2442

  • BassLakeDan
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Ken,, thanks very much for the information, it is happily received here on this end ! I will check out the links you mention. Yes, I will continue on my sharpening journey, nothing stopping me now but my banker ! -Dan
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Re: Thought on Hand Stropping with cheap compounds? 2 years 4 months ago #2443

  • BassLakeDan
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Quote from Ken "... I thought I knew what sharp was, but I have proven myself wrong so many times that now I just look forward to reaching the next level."

Ken, Your statement above caught my eye.. how have you established that one blade is sharper than another? has anyone been able to get there hands on and loan us one of these ? Actually have one on order myself, it is due to be delivered just after I win the next Mega-Lotto

www.catra.org/pages/products/kniveslevel1/surgredst.htm B)
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