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TOPIC: A theory of how the WE diamond pastes work

Re: A theory of how the WE diamond pastes work 2 years 6 months ago #2468

  • wickededge
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New study, different steel. This is a knife that I had made from CPM-154, hardened to 69-70 RHC.

I started with a polished edge, then went back to the 1000 grit stones before progressing to the strops. Here is the edge after the 14µ strops:

14micronafter1000grit-100passes.jpg

510x - 14µ diamond and leather strops after 1000 grit diamond stones - 100 passes

10micronafter14micron-100passes.jpg

510x - 10µ diamond and leather strops after 14µ diamond and leather strops - 100 passes

5micronafter10micron-100passes.jpg

510x - 5µ diamond and leather strops after 10µ diamond and leather strops - 100 passes

3.5micronafter5micron-100passes.jpg

510x - 3.5µ diamond and leather strops after 5µ diamond and leather strops - 100 passes
--Clay Allison
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Re: A theory of how the WE diamond pastes work 2 years 6 months ago #2469

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Next I decided to throw in a little side experiment - I sprayed some Hand American, 1 micron diamond spray on my already pasted 1 micron strops - big difference here, though not totally surprising:

1micronafter3.5micron-100passes.jpg

510x - 1µ diamond and leather strops after 3.5µ diamond and leather strops - 100 passes

There are clearly a LOT more diamonds than when I was using the strops with just the paste. Additionally, most of the 'stiction' was gone from the strops after spraying with the HA spray. I decided to do another 100 passes and started getting back to good 'stiction':

1micronafter3.5micron-200passes.jpg

510x - 1µ diamond and leather strops after 3.5µ diamond and leather strops - 200 passes

For reference, here is a pic of the 1 micron pasted strops from a little earlier before adding the 1 micron spray:

1micronafter3.5micron-150passes.jpg
--Clay Allison
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Re: A theory of how the WE diamond pastes work 2 years 6 months ago #2471

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razoredgeknives wrote:
Man, that is really weird why the lapping films were so slow working and hardly did anything... I can't believe it! My assumptions were totally opposite... lol, it seems as if the only way you can get a fast cutting consistant edge at sub micron levels is with the shaptons... I just don't have a grand to drop on stones right now :(

* edit: keep the test coming Clay! lol, there's gotta be another answer! I haven't given up hope!

If you can hold out til mid-May, I might have just the thing for you!
--Clay Allison
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Re: A theory of how the WE diamond pastes work 2 years 6 months ago #2472

  • mark76
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wickededge wrote:
So far, it seems like we've confirmed that the best stropping effects come from burnishing, which happens when there is adequate 'stiction'.

+3.

However, this is the Wicked Edge pastes. Tonight I took photographs of the edge after stropping with Dovo paste. But it is 0:40 in the night here and somebody in the next room is saying I must come to bed. Up tomorrow :-).
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Re: A theory of how the WE diamond pastes work 2 years 6 months ago #2479

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mark76 wrote:
wickededge wrote:
So far, it seems like we've confirmed that the best stropping effects come from burnishing, which happens when there is adequate 'stiction'.

+3.

However, this is the Wicked Edge pastes. Tonight I took photographs of the edge after stropping with Dovo paste. But it is 0:40 in the night here and somebody in the next room is saying I must come to bed. Up tomorrow :-).

Can't wait to see your results!
--Clay Allison
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Re: A theory of how the WE diamond pastes work 2 years 6 months ago #2482

  • mark76
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Interesting experiments again, Clay!
wickededge wrote:
Slight tangent here - polishing tapes... I decided to retest the polishing tapes, starting from a polished bevel and counting strokes, so here goes, working backwards from 1 micron polish:

7000gritafter1micronpolish.jpg

510x - 7000 grit polishing tapes after 1 micron polish - 100 passes

3000gritafter7000grit.jpg

510x - 3000 grit polishing tapes after 7000 grit tapes - 100 passes

These look better than yesterday's results but not overwhelming.

Why do you think they are not overwhelmingly better? I clearly see scratches now that (I hope) are from the polishing tapes. They are also quite evenly spaced, creating a nice pattern almost like what a stone would do.

By the way, with current knowledge (it changes per day :) ) I think this it the way to test the very low micron size compounds/tapes/stones: first burnish the edge until it is very smooth (e.g. using the 1 micron paste, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the 14 micron paste worked as well :) ) and then do strokes with the fine stuff.
razoredgeknives wrote:
Thanks so much for this Clay! It would, in fact, seem as if the 10>5>3.5 progression yields better results in the end... wasn't so clear in the first one

I think we should be careful in drawing such conclusions too early. In one post Clay noted that the 1 micron compound had by far the most stiction. That would imply that 300 strokes with the 1 micron paste should produce more burnishing than 300 strokes (in total) with the 10-3.5-1 micron pastes. But in fact the surface of the edge after the latter progression looks smoother.

I had similar results: sometimes a particular compound seemed to cause more burnishing than another compound, whereas in different circumstances the results were exactly the opposite. I think this might very well be the result of the way in which the strops were seasoned (and the amount of paste applied).
wickededge wrote:
New study, different steel. This is a knife that I had made from CPM-154, hardened to 69-70 RHC.

Are you sure that hardness isn’t a typo, Clay? But good to see the burnishing works just as good on harder steels!
wickededge wrote:
Next I decided to throw in a little side experiment - I sprayed some Hand American, 1 micron diamond spray on my already pasted 1 micron strops - big difference here, though not totally surprising:

1micronafter3.5micron-100passes.jpg

510x - 1µ diamond and leather strops after 3.5µ diamond and leather strops - 100 passes

There are clearly a LOT more diamonds than when I was using the strops with just the paste.

I am not quite sure what I see here. I I do see scratches, but not as many or as regular as those that would be caused by a 1 micron stone. Is that correct, Clay? If you’d increase the amount of spray applied, would the number of scratches increase and a more regular pattern appear?
Last Edit: 2 years 6 months ago by mark76.
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Re: A theory of how the WE diamond pastes work 2 years 6 months ago #2487

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Ooops, I did mean 59-60 RHC! :) I'll stitch the 1 micron paste image to the 1 micron paste + spray so we can compare them side by side.
--Clay Allison
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Re: A theory of how the WE diamond pastes work 2 years 6 months ago #2500

  • razoredgeknives
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Yeah Mark, you may be right... I guess I'm a little confused about which pictures were the right ones? These are the side-by-side comparisons that you posted Clay...
wickededge wrote:
So, here are side by side the 1µ - 300 passes and the 10µ -100 passes> 3.5µ - 100 passes> 1µ - 100 passes:

1micronafter1000grit-300passes-1stround.jpg

510x - 1µ - 300 passes

1micronafter3.5micron-150passes.jpg

510x - 10µ -100 passes> 3.5µ - 100 passes> 1µ - 100 passes

But then in the post above this one, you had another pic of a the same progression it seemed, ending with 100 passes on the 1m leather strops...

1micronafter3.5micron-100passes.jpg

510 x - 1 micron diamond and leather strops after 3.5 micron diamond and leather strops - 100 passes

Unless I missing something, there is a noticeable difference in the first two pictures, but a HUGE difference in smoothness in the last one...

I am referencing post # 2463 & 2464.
Last Edit: 2 years 6 months ago by razoredgeknives.
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Re: A theory of how the WE diamond pastes work 2 years 6 months ago #2501

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In your post above, you've got images from two sets of tests, two on the AUS-8 knife and one on the CPM-154 blade.

Here are three from the CPM-154 knife:

3.5 Micron strops - 100 strokes:
3.5micronafter5micron-100passes.jpg

The bevel is very smooth after the 3.5 strops.

1 Micron Strops - both paste and spray - 100 strokes:
1micronafter3.5micron-100passes.jpg

There were many, more obvious scratches after adding the spray to the 1 micron strops. I had lost the 'stiction' here and seemed to be getting more abrasion and less burnishing.

1 Micron Strops - both paste and spary - 200 strokes:
1micronafter3.5micron-200passes.jpg

I did another 100 strokes with the 1 micron strops after the spray had dried. The stiction returned and the surface smoothed out immediately. I believe that once the spray dried, burnishing resumed and abrasion was minimized.
--Clay Allison
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Re: A theory of how the WE diamond pastes work 2 years 6 months ago #2504

  • BassLakeDan
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mark76 wrote:
When I first saw Tom’s microscope photographs of the edge of a knife after stropping with the 14 micron and 10 micron diamond pastes I was baffled.....

But in short I think the following is happening:
  • Both the balsa and the leather strops are hardly abrasive by themselves. They do not cause much burnishing by themselves either.
  • The strops become effective when loaded with the diamond pastes.
  • The diamond pastes cause a lot of burnishing, but hardly any abrasion.
It is the pastes that do the work, not the strops. And these pastes are hardly abrasive, but have a strong burnishing power.

Well, the whole subject of sub-micron particle stropping has me baffled in more was than one.. I question if it is even possible. See the following chart for a reality check on what worlds of size we are talking about then ask yourself. "what exactly is it am doing or trying to accomplish by putting this size particle on a sample of cow hide and hand applying that to a knife edge".., Hummmm.

Thanks to www.standridgegranite.com/calibration.htm#19 Standridge Granite company for the chart .. There are very few people in the world that know more about "flat" than these folks/. It would be interesting if we could get one of their engineer to participate on this thread !
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