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TOPIC: Kershaw Shuffle 3800

Kershaw Shuffle 3800 11 months 3 weeks ago #13825

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DARRELLALLEN wrote:
One thing I can tell you that is that if you don't change ( i.e., lower ) your angle before going to the strops, you will round the nice, sharp edge over a tad. I think Clay and others have suggested dropping back 2 degrees ( like from 20 down to 18 ) for stropping, to avoid rounding the edge over as bad ? As Eamon said, just have fun, that's what it's all about. :woohoo:

I think the stropping process is a matter of technique, as well as angle. If anyone has noticed the testing that Clay has done in another thread, a few strokes with the strops can make a big difference in the "testable" sharpness of an edge. This would not indicate any "rounding", but rather edge refinement.

I have played a lot with trying to figure out the best method for stropping. I tend to reduce my angles by a degree or maybe 1.5 degrees for the coarse strops (14/10/6/3/1 micron) and use medium to light pressure. This does not "round" the edge, but makes it sharper. After that for the sub-micron abrasives on either Kangaroo or nanocloth, (down from 0.5 to 0.025 micron), I use the same angle as the one I started with, but very light ...whisper light, strokes and only 10 or 15 per side. This makes a significant difference in the ultimate sharpness of the blade as indicated by the HHT. This is not evidence of rounding at the edge. If it is evidence of "Micro-Convexing", then I will take that, because the blade is demonstrably sharper.

I might add, I have used just the 14/10 micron strops after the 1K diamonds on many occasions for a quick job, keeping my base angle, and using 10 or so very light strokes per side, and seen edge improvement!

The generally agreed upon mechanism for any rounding of the edge is the stropping medium having enough "give" to wrap around the edge and round it somewhat. How much is determined by the give ..or compressibility of the medium combined with the pressure exerted against the edge. If this is true (and I agree with the premise), then it follows that when using different media (say balsa versus leather, or Kangaroo versus nanocloth) a slightly different technique is required. Bottom line is, there are no one size fits all rules for this!

So, the idea of destructively rounding the edge based only on the angle chosen, is not a universal truth when stropping. What you get totally depends upon the entire technique used. If you find and use the "proper" technique, you will definitely refine and improve your edge.

OTH,When using a bunch of strokes aimed predominantly at polishing the bevel using strops, it is a good idea to reduce the angle. With a large number of strokes and looking for some speed in the process, som rounding is made more likely. So it is more important for one to experiment with angles and pressure to find the optimum combination for this situation.

An edge *can* be reduced in sharpness by incorrect stropping. The operative term here being *can*. It also *can* be significantly improved!

So like most things in this art, the answer to the question of "what is the best way to strop" is..
It depends!
:evil:
Phil

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Last Edit: 11 months 3 weeks ago by PhilipPasteur.
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Kershaw Shuffle 3800 11 months 3 weeks ago #13827

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Phil, thanks for the information. I only used 10 strokes per side on the strops at 18 deg. I am reasonably sure it resulted in a sharper edge but, my method of testing is with my finger and how well it cuts. Since my method is not scientific I cannot make a definitive statement that it got sharper. I can tell you it came out very sharp and I am extreamly happy with my weps. Another situation I had was, I added too much paste to the strops. I'm guessing thats a rookie mistake that many make but, it will wear off with additional use (they were very stickey). I did several more knives yesterday without stropping and the diamond stones are really breaking in nicely. Have you cleaned your ceramic stones yet? Mine seemed to get durty pretty fast, so I used toothpaste (rubbed it in with my finger then wiped it down with a paper towel) they look new again. Thanks again for sharing your experience, I always read and try to implement changes to my process based on others experiences (just makes good sense) B)
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Kershaw Shuffle 3800 11 months 3 weeks ago #13844

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As usual we digress...
:whistle:

If it works for you... keep doing it and refine it. The more practice and knowledge that you get... the better... or at very least more repeatable the GREAT edges you will get. :woohoo:

I read the directions on the paste when I first got mine and put a one inch strip out of the tube on them... WAY too much. WAY to sticky and way too much left on the blade ...for me. Some folks like them sticky...with a bunch of friction... Clay says he has used them this way with lot of pressure to the point that he lifts his base off of the table. This doesn't work for me... not enough control out of my old hands and nervous system to do that regularly with fine control anywhere in the equation. What I di was use them for several knives... wiping the excess off of ,first the blade between strop grits, and second... Eventually I took some, a reasonable amount of my 90% isopropyl alcohol (isopropanol rubbing alcohol) on a very clean cotton lint free cloth with a sufficient saturation level of isopropyl on it to dilute the paste, thin it, and distribute it evenly on the strop. You may waste a bit of paste this way, but you can get the stops working more optimally much more quickly that way! When I add paste, I use three of four dot along the centerline of the strops and spread that to get s decant even coating, using a bit of alcohol as required. Just a little really does go a long way... If you read the instructions that I did... no wonder you put too much on...

Yes I have cleaned the ceramics... there is a thread on that.. I think, more than one..
But here is one:
www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=c...4953&Itemid=271#4961

Other people swear by a product called Barkeepers Friend. It comes in a powder and a liquid. More recently I have used the liquid that I got at Home Depot and a clean dedicated Scotchbrite pad. Works great. If I let them get real grungy, with impregnated black metal shavings,,, the liquid Barkeepers friend and Scotchbrite (medium pads), will make then look brand new Though I sounds like your toothpaste can do a good job too... as long as they don't get too nasty... The Barkeepers Friend has a chemical in it that does dissolve and help remove the metal swarf.. that gets embedded (gets out the black crap ):) You would like it.

Easier, if Clay Still has them is to get one of the "Super Eraser" devices... they work fast and easily... though maybe not quite as completely and effectively as the previously mentioned method.

You will also read in that thread where several people , including Clay... and myself, used the ceramics damp to even slightly wet for the best results.

Give the things mentioned there a try... you probably will find some or all of them useful!!

Depending on who you ask, they can get pretty black before it negatively effect your results though...
I think that you could do at least a dozen knives before you have a cleaning requirement. They tend to look much worse than they are acting on the edge...those black stains on light colored ceramic stones make them look pretty grungy real fast.

Just look at your results with some magnification and see how paper is slicing ...you will tell the difference quite easily!!.

One last thing ...the thumb testing. I use my calibrated ( :) ) thumb all of the time to gauge sharpness. I have been doing that for 40 years. I swear to you that I can feel with the thumb...reliably,
the difference between HHT 1 and HHT3 levels of sharpness. 65 to 75% or so percent of the time I can feel the difference between HHT4 and HHT5 An educated and experience calibrated thumb is nothing to be discounted as an effective sharpness detection tool.

:evil: :whistle:
Phil

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Last Edit: 11 months 3 weeks ago by PhilipPasteur.
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Kershaw Shuffle 3800 11 months 3 weeks ago #13845

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JackMontrose wrote:
I will take your suggestion and get some balsa strops, I need to order the 50 - 80 diamonds anyway (it just takes to long to re-profile with the 100 diamond stones). Call me crazy but, I'm just having too much fun sharpening knives, the wicked edge is the bomb.... ;)

Jack


I think you will be happy with them Jack. I also bought the 50/80 diamonds and they certainly do cut much quicker than the 100 / 200 do.......and I totally agree, the WEPS is DA BOMB ! ( BTW...........Phil made some VERY analytical and nice points explaining stropping, I am just a beginner compared to most of these guys, but I am still having a ball sharpening whatever I can get clamped in. :)
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Kershaw Shuffle 3800 11 months 3 weeks ago #13847

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I see Ken - Kens corner CKTG is offering XXC www.chefknivestogo.com/nuume25gr.html ~24 grit stones they sound awesome for re-profiling it would be great if Ken could make some up for the WE they smoke by the looks of it on the video For myself I would use the full size stone then refine it on the WE but for those that prefer to use the WE start to finish they would be great it sounds as if they work so well they negate the need for a belt sander for major corrections / repairs .
Perhaps Clay could speak to Ken about a WE version.
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Kershaw Shuffle 3800 11 months 3 weeks ago #13848

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Yikes Leo, the 24 grit stone sure ugly'd up that nice cleaver... :pinch: I think if I wanted that much of a re-profile I would buy a different cleaver but, I can see where there may be a market for something that aggressive. I really can't comment on the wicked edge 50/80 stones because I don't have them yet, I'm just saying that it takes too long to re-profile with the 100 grit stones. I do know that the 100 grit stones when new left some nasty rough edges on my knives but with time they now do not and the progression through 1000 grit diamonds then ceramics leave a smooth sharp edge. I am going to order the 50/80 grit stones soon and hope they don't make me spend hours to refine the edge after using. I re-profile all of my knives the first time to make sure they are uniform for repeatability. :cheer:

Jack
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Kershaw Shuffle 3800 11 months 3 weeks ago #13851

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I love the warnings about the sound but it is a serious alternative to a belt sander the compromise on many knives as far as grind geometry goes are very poor many knives need to be altered to do the job in hand stones do seem to leave less scratching than diamonds I await my WE but I have a 140 diamond plate and I would say it cuts slower than a 150 bamboo stone and leaves deeper scratches I do not have a lot of evidence to back this up since steels vary so I would not say that is cut in stone !
But this 24 stone interests me greatly one could get three quarters of the new shape done with it then set up precisely on the WE to refine it certainly cut through that fine Shun steel in no time it would make repairs and changing grinds feasible without the noise and dust and care needed not to overheat the metal with a belt sander . I think it would be great mounted on some WE blanks it could really save some time .
New things appear all the time and just had a thought what would happen if you supercharged it with a CBN spray ? Oops blade now part of stone !
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Kershaw Shuffle 3800 11 months 3 weeks ago #13852

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You are absolutly right; there is a tool for every job and the 24 grit stone looks like it would make short work of a big re-profile. I still would not use it on any of my Shun knives however, I probably will not use the 50/80 grit stones on them ether. Now on a relative's Shun that looks like she used it as a cleaver, hmmm, maybe, well yep! It will be interesting to see what Clay thinks :) I need to get those 50/80 stones on order.

Jack
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Kershaw Shuffle 3800 11 months 3 weeks ago #13865

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LeoBarr wrote:
without the noise and dust and care needed not to overheat the metal with a belt sander . I think it would be great mounted on some WE blanks it could really save some time .
New things appear all the time and just had a thought what would happen if you supercharged it with a CBN spray quote]


HMMMM
Not so much of the issues with "noise and dust and care needed not to overheat the metal" .. once you develop expertise with the machine. The Little Kalamazoo 42" belt grinder is pretty quiet. Some dust.. but anytime you take metal off of a blade... it has to go somewhere, no different with a stone/plate.

What kind of CBN.. grade.. could you "supercharge" a 24 grit plate with?? I have some 30/45/60 micron CBN pastes... none are suitable for "supercharging" a 24 grit stone though. the 60 micron would be close to a 220 grit stone...

This seems close to cultivating my garden with a Caterpillar D11.. maybe a bit of overkill.

Please let me know if you try it and what your results are.

I like the little Kalamazoo with the belts that I have from 50/80/110/240/320/600/800/1000/2000/3000/3500,,, To do anything I need to do on an edge. At 3500 grit GR belt you can make most anyone happy with the edge. Add a couple of leather belts with proper grits...
You can cut with five and then share cutting GAIN and efficiency between them,,, and do it fast, and efficiently... not enough dust and noise to mitigate the fine results,,

How much would you have to slog through that crater ridden 24... and how much refining from there..

Too Much form my prospective... versus 5 minutes on the Kalamazoo ...

Hmmmm what is better??
Give me the grinder... I will be done better and faster than you with your24 grit stone.. (supercharged or not)(u !!!
Phil

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Kershaw Shuffle 3800 11 months 3 weeks ago #13866

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Sorry I was joking about the CBN spray but the stone is interesting .
The only place I could use the belt sander would be in the utility part of the kitchen not really practical and the stone is about one sixth of the price of a Kally ; so I am certainly going to get one once they are back in stock . I will get the bench stone size whether I finish the blade off on the WE or bench stones is pretty immaterial .
It certainly cut through that VG10 steel like butter, so I think it will be very useful for a number of jobs that had I a belt sander I would probable use for those the other great point it is much more controllable I would expect than a belt sander .
Do not get me wrong I would love to have a belt sander but I believe this stone followed by a 60 or 50/80 etc would be just fine.
Last Edit: 11 months 3 weeks ago by LeoBarr.
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