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TOPIC: New WE owner (soon)

Re:New WE owner (soon) 2 months 2 days ago #18601

  • razoredgeknives
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Jetech wrote:
razoredgeknives wrote:
Jetech wrote:
Thanks for the welcome. First question. I am getting the Pro Pack 2 this week which comes with the 1.4/0.6 ceramics. I also ordered a Chosera 2k/3k stone. Most grit charts I can find don't list the 1.4/0.6 stones but instead list the 1200/1600. Can anyone shed some light on where the Chosera will fit in progression from a diamond 1000?

Thanks.

You really probably need the 800's to speed things up, but you can go to the 2k choseras directly from the 1k diamonds. It may take more time. Make sure to rub them together frequently to clean them and provide slurry which will improve the cutting action of the abrasives. Keep us posted!

So where in this progression do the ceramic stones come into play? After 3K Chosera and before stropping? Thanks for the reply Josh.

Well the ceramics you mentioned (1.4 and .6um) would actually go at the very end, even after the 10k choseras (since the 10k's are rated around 2um). But the 1200/1600 would be a nice "in between" between the 1k and the 2k. Otherwise you can actually use some automotive sandpaper to help remove scratches.
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Re:New WE owner (soon) 2 months 1 day ago #18603

  • mark76
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If the 1.4 and 0,6 micron stones actually were 1.4 and 0.6 micron, I'd agree with you Josh. But I find in practice that they're more like the 1200/1600 stones. The 1.4 mu stones seem a bit coarser than the 1200 stones and the 0.6 mu stones a bit (much) finer than the 1600 stones. So, all other things being equal, I agree that according to the grit listing, the 0.6 mu stones should go after the 10K Choseras, but not the 1.4 mu stones.

However, all other thing are not equal :-). The Choseras are waterstones that break down relatively quickly. This gives them a great polishing action the ceramic stones don't have.

I myself have the 5K and 10K Choseras. And a favourite progression of mine if I want a mirror finish on a knife is diamond stones -> 1200/1600 ceramic stones -> 5K Chosera -> 10K Chosera. If I want to do crazy I can then strop with a really fine compound, but it is necessary by no means.

As for the 3K Choseras, according to the grit chart they fit in somewhere between the 1200 and 1600 ceramics (and imho also between the 1.4 and 0.6 mu ceramics). I think you have many ways in which you can use these 3K stones, Jetech:
  • Use them directly after the diamond stones and then strop (or finish)
  • Use the diamond stones, then the 1.4 mu stones, then the 3K Choseras. This will leave a similar finish as the previous bullet, but it will save you on the expensive waterstones
  • Use either of these progressions and then go to the 0.4 mu stones. And then strop (or don't).

I think the last progression will leave the finest finish, but I'm not sure, since I don't have the 3K Choseras. Just experiment a little and see whether the 0.4 mu stones further refine the edge after the Choseras.

Success! And please let us know what your experiences are. I'm really interested!
Last Edit: 2 months 1 day ago by mark76.
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Re:New WE owner (soon) 2 months 1 day ago #18605

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I agree that the brown ceramic said to be 1.4 micron acts much coarser, probably closer to the 1200 than the 14,500 that a true 1.4 micron would be.

For what it's worth, my grit charts from AdvancedAbrasives.com say the following:

15 micron is equivalent to 1200 mesh
12 micron is equivalent to 1600 mesh
9 micron is equivalent to 1800
6 micron is equivalent to 3000
5 micron is equivalent to 4000
3 micron is equivalent to 8000
1.5 micron is equivalent to 13000
1 micron is equivalent to 15000
.5 micron is equivalent to 50000
.3 micron is equivalent to 68000
.1 micron is equivalent to 203000

Generally, you can divide the micron mesh size into 20,300 to give you the equivalent grit.

Wicked Edge's numbers are a little different and are probably empirical. Nobody's been able to measure the grit size for ceramics because they are all made from the same grit. The coarseness/fineness is probably a function of how they bake it (pressure/time/temp). To give you an equivalent grit size, they just compare the scratch patterns and eyeball them. "Hey, this looks pretty close to a 5 micron diamond scratch pattern!"

One of the guys on the Spyderco forum say that their "fine" is 7 to 9 micron or 2000 to 3000 grit
Their "Ultra-fine" is 3 to 4 micron or 4000 to 6000 grit. Neither of these comes close to 1.4/.6 micron. I have some of their Ultra-fine stones and they are apparently the same as WE's micro-fine white.
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Re:New WE owner (soon) 2 months 1 day ago #18606

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mark76 wrote:
If the 1.4 and 0,6 micron stones actually were 1.4 and 0.6 micron, I'd agree with you Josh. But I find in practice that they're more like the 1200/1600 stones. The 1.4 mu stones seem a bit coarser than the 1200 stones and the 0.6 mu stones a bit (much) finer than the 1600 stones. So, all other things being equal, I agree that according to the grit listing, the 0.6 mu stones should go after the 10K Choseras, but not the 1.4 mu stones.

However, all other thing are not equal :-). The Choseras are waterstones that break down relatively quickly. This gives them a great polishing action the ceramic stones don't have.

I myself have the 5K and 10K Choseras. And a favourite progression of mine if I want a mirror finish on a knife is diamond stones -> 1200/1600 ceramic stones -> 5K Chosera -> 10K Chosera. If I want to do crazy I can then strop with a really fine compound, but it is necessary by no means.

As for the 3K Choseras, according to the grit chart they fit in somewhere between the 1200 and 1600 ceramics (and imho also between the 1.4 and 0.6 mu ceramics). I think you have many ways in which you can use these 3K stones, Jetech:
  • Use them directly after the diamond stones and then strop (or finish)
  • Use the diamond stones, then the 1.4 mu stones, then the 3K Choseras. This will leave a similar finish as the previous bullet, but it will save you on the expensive waterstones
  • Use either of these progressions and then go to the 0.4 mu stones. And then strop (or don't).

I think the last progression will leave the finest finish, but I'm not sure, since I don't have the 3K Choseras. Just experiment a little and see whether the 0.4 mu stones further refine the edge after the Choseras.

Success! And please let us know what your experiences are. I'm really interested!

Well I guess I stand corrected! lol I don't have either sets of the ceramics but just rather stick to my Choseras, so I don't have much experience in this arena!

This thread may be useful

It seems as if lapping them may change the courseness of the stones themselves.

Also, I remember reading somewhere about a year ago where clay measured the scratch pattern on the micro-fines and they seemed to match up w/ the factory specs of 1.4 and .6...? It must be different in reality, however, as so many people have reported!
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Re:New WE owner (soon) 2 months 1 day ago #18607

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tcmeyer wrote:
Nobody's been able to measure the grit size for ceramics because they are all made from the same grit. The coarseness/fineness is probably a function of how they bake it (pressure/time/temp). To give you an equivalent grit size, they just compare the scratch patterns and eyeball them. "Hey, this looks pretty close to a 5 micron diamond scratch pattern!"

One of the guys on the Spyderco forum say that their "fine" is 7 to 9 micron or 2000 to 3000 grit
Their "Ultra-fine" is 3 to 4 micron or 4000 to 6000 grit. Neither of these comes close to 1.4/.6 micron. I have some of their Ultra-fine stones and they are apparently the same as WE's micro-fine white.

I did a blog post on this. In case you're interested: moleculepolishing.wordpress.com/2013/08/...edge-ceramic-stones/


razoredgeknives wrote:
Also, I remember reading somewhere about a year ago where clay measured the scratch pattern on the micro-fines and they seemed to match up w/ the factory specs of 1.4 and .6...? It must be different in reality, however, as so many people have reported!

I don't remember a post by Clay you write about. I do remember threads on this topic, however, including the one you refer to. And I did a blog post on it. Yes, I did a lot of blog posts ;) . It's here: moleculepolishing.wordpress.com/2012/08/...fine-ceramic-stones/ . And photos of scratch patterns can be seen here: moleculepolishing.wordpress.com/2012/07/...fine-ceramic-stones/ . Beware of my conclusion, which in hindsight I think is erroneous. (Hence my other post on the micro fine ceramic stones.)

The final verdict on these stones is, as far as I'm concerned, still open. And, as Clay has shown, will probably remain open, since the fineness/coarseness of these stones can be changed by lapping them.
Last Edit: 2 months 1 day ago by mark76.
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Re:New WE owner (soon) 2 months 1 day ago #18608

  • Jetech
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Thanks for the wealth of information here guys. I added the Chosera 2k/3k to my order based on the info on the WE page, "3000 grit combination picks up perfectly from the 1000 grit diamond stone". When my kit gets here tomorrow I will see how it all works before I consider adding another stone set.

Tim
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New WE owner (soon) 2 months 1 day ago #18609

  • GibCurry
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Jetech wrote:
Hi guys. Well I pulled the trigger on a Pro Pack 2. ...... So I went all in with the PP2 kit, case, and Chosera 2k/3k stone set. I look forward to learning on this system. ..... This system should keep me busy for quite some time. Will have to dig out some old kitchen knives to try out the new system, before I start on the real knives.

I predict no buyer's remorse! (A pretty easy prediction to make... especially if you're already here on the forum initiating excellent threads like this one!!)

I got my PP2 just over a year ago. I just got the basic package but have since added the 50/80 grinder steels and the VSTA. So, that's my progression -- stock, so to speak. Typically, just doing kitchen knives I don't even use the whole set, but usually on friends nicer EDC I will use the whole "stock" progression.

Thinking about it now, I'd hazard a guess 90% of the population of Seattle has never seen sharper knives and I know none of my friends have.

So, just my perspective from the bottom looking up. The stock progression results in an edge that is far superior in "most" people's experience.

That being said, this is not a forum for most people.

That being said, when I feel more competent and want to really hang with the masters here (and, with all due respect, the truly OCD) then I'll step up to the Chosera's and another set of strops.

In the meantime, this thread reads nearly like a master's thesis. The foundational and functional collective knowledge (wisdom?) you've stirred up is great!!

A piece of advice many here have mentioned elsewhere and my brother emphasized to me. Your intro made it sound like you may also sharpen by hand. In which case you probably already.....Listen.

My brother said I should put a microphone nearby and amplify the sound. The sound gives my wife chills but, there is some good information coming from the sweet sound of the stone and steel.

Welcome. Enjoy. And thanks again for stirring things up. Keeps us all sharp.
~~~~

For Now,

Gib

Φ

"Things work out best for those who make the best out of the way things work out."

"My goal is to be a good, practical knife sharpener. My dream is to polish molecules."
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New WE owner (soon) 2 months 1 day ago #18610

  • KyleKaplan
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Hi Tim

Welcome to the Wicked Edge community. This grit progression is what I have found to work the best when you are using the Pro-Pack II and 2000/3000 grit Chosera waterstones:

100 grit diamond stone
200 grit diamond stone
400 grit diamond stone
600 grit diamond stone
800 grit diamond stone
1000 grit diamond stone
1.4 micron ceramic (says coarse on handle)
0.6 micron ceramic (says fine on handle)
2000 grit chosera waterstone
3000 grit chosera waterstone
1 micron leather strop
0.5 micron leather strop


Happy sharpening!

-Kyle
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New WE owner (soon) 1 month 3 weeks ago #18641

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Jetech, I'll buy your sharp maker if you want to sell. I noticed this device and would like to get one, but price is way out of my league for the kitchen knife sharpener. Then I was trying to find if this device will do serrated blades and so far I assume you need triangle stones based upon other posters. No doubt this appears to be in a class all its own and the quality and precision are the best. Maybe some day. New and young to the sharpener industry and knives in general. Contact me if you would be interested.
Last Edit: 1 month 3 weeks ago by beckbilt. Reason: information not suitable for general topic
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New WE owner (soon) 1 month 3 weeks ago #18646

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beckbilt wrote:
Jetech, I'll buy your sharp maker if you want to sell. I noticed this device and would like to get one,

Beckbilt, I don't plan to get rid of the Spyderco sharpener for quite some time. Once I have a WEPS edge on everything I own maybe I will consider it. I do have a set of Norton waterstones and an Edge Pro I will be looking to get rid of. The Spyderco is a great system "if" your knives are not too far gone to the dull side.
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