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TOPIC: System Passaround

Re:Re: System Passaround 3 months 1 week ago #17123

  • CliffStamp
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razoredgeknives wrote:

... the bases of the guide rod arms will bump into the blue base and not allow you to move them in for lower angles

Yes, however if you clamp on the handle the edge is far ahead of the base so you should not come near it.

As an update :



These are a set of knives from Paderno, a few observations :

-full height flat grinds
-edges are <0.005" but not consistent (bevel can often double along the edge)
-not dishwasher safe (will rust readily)
-edges tend to chip more so than deform
-all tips were broken off to some extent, little plastic deformation

In short :

-decent ergonomics
-high cutting ability
-low to moderate corrosion resistance
-edge durability, low to moderate (no rippling of the primary)

It is likely they were under soaked, and the steel was not well normalized and the quench was not extended. These are expensive, but you are paying for the brand name.

However of interest here was the sharpening :

Paring knife :

-edge bevel is between 15 and 20 dps, uneven
-cut the edge off with two passes into a cheap stone
-125 pps on the 100 grit, evenly set the bevel to 20 dps
-25 pps on the 1000 grit, edge was cleanly finished

Utility :

-edge bevel is between 15 and 20 dps
-cut the edge off with two passes into a cheap stone
-25 dps setting (major damage on the edge), 75 pps/100 grit to grind some of it away, edge was apexed
-30 pps/1000 grit, edge was cleanly finished

For knives like these, I generally do a few finishes and then the next time I sharpen them I see how it worked out and then modify the edges accordingly to work on finding the optimal bevel. As what is best depends on user skill/scope it takes a few tries to figure out what works best. However any sharpening that you do greatly improves the performance so friends/family are pleased even while you are experimenting.

Again, I did one of them, a family member who never sharpened a knife did the other one, no issues and followed the same very basic system :

-cut the edge off
-reset the edge to the relief angle until it doesn't reflect light
-micro-bevel to finish

Easily makes an edge push cuts newsprint and is far sharper than anything they have seen.
razoredgeknives wrote:
do you have any pics of the edge when jumping right from the 100 grit to the highest stone with your microbevel?

I will take some shortly, I have to regrind a XM-18 .
Last Edit: 3 months 1 week ago by CliffStamp.
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Re:Re: System Passaround 3 months 2 days ago #17218

  • CliffStamp
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Here is an edge in CTS-XHP / 63 HRC this is Carpenters steel which is designed to offer the hardness/wear of D2 blended with the corrosion resistance of 440C ( cartech.ides.com/datasheet.aspx?&I=101&E=343 ) these are loose promotional descriptions, not strict materials properties. In any case this is thus currently a middle of the road steel in regards to grindability considering the modern use of extreme alloys.



This it the as-boxed edge, multi-faceted with a decent polish.

The edge is < 15 dps on one side, < 20 dps on the other side, so will take a bit of work to clean up regardless of how it is to be sharpened. I used the 100 grit stones and set the bevel to 13 dps. In order to avoid grinding into the base that means for the first part of the edge you have to short stroke on the bottom of the hones.




This is after 1000 passes per side on the 100 grit stones. I am using light force, I will measure it the next time, but based on what I have seen in videos I am using less force than most. You can grind with heavier force, however it does rapidly wear abrasives and in general I would always advise using a more coarse grit and less force.

At this point the remaining bevel is less than a mm wide and very difficult to even tell there is any of the original bevel left without magnification. At this point for practical purposes it is time to switch the abrasives and slightly increase the angle, there is no benefit to apexing on the shaping grit for reasons that will be apparent later. But for the sake of experiment, lets continue.



This is after another 1000 passes, at this point the bevel is so small (the original edge) that if you use a marker it looks like it is all removed in a pass. There is still some of the original bevel left under magnification but it can't be seen by the naked eye. There is really no productive point to keeping going with the shaping grit at this stage - but lets continue anyway.



This is after another 2000 passes, so 4000 total. The edge has now been formed with the shaping bevel. However if you look closely you can see there is going to be a problem when you go to refine the polish. The edge looks straight but there are divots knocked out of it periodically. To make this really clear here is the edge after just 10 passes per side with the 1000 grit stone at a slightly elevated angle :



Note that almost immediately with just a small increase in angle (13 dps to 17 dps) the 1000 grit stone starts to eliminate the very harsh 100 grit scratch pattern but when it does it reveals what happens to the edge in those parts that the 100 grit stone has took those pieces out. In order to make the edge perfectly uniform that edge has to be ground back the depth of that divot.

In short :

-the 1000 grit stone can very quickly remove the 100 grit scratches by using an elevated bevel

-if you apex on the 100 grit stone it is going to be wasteful

-the 40 grit stones are likely of strong benefit if you reset angles on low grindability steels

However while this seems like a lot of work, this was :

-A D2 class steel at 63 HRC
-the bevel was taken down from 15-20 dps to an even 13 dps (4" blade)
-using very low force

I would in general advocate something more practical such as :

-use the 40 grit at the shaping stage
-stop when you can not see the original bevel any more
-slightly elevate and increase the grits

Repeat the last step until sharpened. With some thought to angles/finishes you can work out a way to grind efficiently in both time and steel consumed.

Of course if you don't care at all about the steel used then no big deal but given the prices of some modern knives, it might be of consideration/value.
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Re:Re: System Passaround 3 months 2 days ago #17219

  • mark76
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Thanksalot, Cliff! Very insightful.

Also a nice demonstration of the effect for which Tom coined a name, which I forgot: a fine stone revealing imperfection that a coarser stone left (but which were not clearly visible after the coarser stone).
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System Passaround 1 month 14 hours ago #17935

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Update, using the WE and the Sharpmaker with the new CBN rods to clean up a bunch of heavily used kitchen knives :

-ref thread : www.spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?6...iewfull=1#post953436



Here are a few things which are starting to stand out to me :

a) There should be a lubricant with the kit given its nature as being comprehensive. Dry honing is problematic for a lot of reasons, and the lubricant could be as simple as a glass cleaner or similar (commonly used) or an actual cutting agent as Trend sells (which is insanely expensive).

b) The standard kit should include the really coarse stones because even the 100 grit ones can take quite a while to take down an edge which needs an angle reset or to remove visible damage. In general the very coarse grits would keep the force low which is what you want for many reasons.

c) It would be nice if there was a small booklet of standard sample paper included which was easy to obtain. That way in videos where people show the sharpness they could all use the same paper which would to some extent make the comparisons a bit more useful.

d) The system will struggle with very narrow blades and low angles, this is a pretty serious problem especially given the cost of the system and how people in that price range tend to be a bit more interested in optimizing performance. A very simple solution to this is to just allow the clamp to open wide enough to clamp on the handle of blades and thus they are further out on the system and thus at low angles the abrasive doesn't hit the holder.

e) It would be nice if the arms were marked L/R and UP/Down. This seems stupid, but one of the common problems that people will struggle with if you ask them to use it is how that goes and they will fiddle with it long enough that they could have had a blade sharpened already.

f) Add a small stiff brush to clean off the diamond hones. This sounds silly, you can just cut the handle off of a used tooth brush, but again consider the price of the kit and this would make it more complete and get people focused on the maintenance as the stones can load up a little, especially if you use a lubricant, and especially if it isn't just water (which can cause corrosion problems).

g) This one sounds really silly, black cases freak people out. If I have this in the front seat and people see it they always think gun or similar. It makes no sense that black cases/handles/blades freak people out so much but they do. But also it isn't that nice to have a black case if you are taking this outside as it becomes invisible if you put it on the ground and it gets low light.
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System Passaround 1 month 13 hours ago #17937

  • razoredgeknives
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Hey Cliff! thanks for the update! Maybe I can help out on a few of these points w/ my experience (for what it's worth lol).

a)I use water a decent amount and then let it air dry and have had no issues w/ corrosion to date... I also use a 50/50 solution of windex/rubbing alcohol sometimes, but I have really been enjoying the water lately.

b) do you think it would be beneficial to have a certain course waterstone cut for the WEPS paddles that would be much more efficient of a cutter for the heavy re-profile work? I know there are shaptons and choseras out there already... any recommendations?

d) this is an interesting point and one that would not be too difficult IF you could move the pivot point out in front of the vice to where the blade would be. I shall attempt to do this in the near future, stay tuned =) I am working on having a part made that would allow this very thing. Keep in mind that it wouldn't work on all blades, but it should work on a decent amount of them (i.e. it wouldn't work on one with a heavily contoured handle).

f) I find that it doesn't ever load up if I have a bowl of water in front of my weps and then just "paint" the stones w/ water every time I alternate... are you having a different experience?

g) If you send it to me I can cerakote it pink for you! ;) that should put ppl's mind at ease! seriously though, I don't think Clay had this in mind when he got it... I think people in New Mexico and ppl in Canada view the issue of guns slightly different :P
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System Passaround 4 weeks 21 hours ago #17955

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razoredgeknives wrote:
a)I use water a decent amount and then let it air dry and have had no issues w/ corrosion to date... I also use a 50/50 solution of windex/rubbing alcohol sometimes, but I have really been enjoying the water lately.

I have never had a problem personally, but I have had a decent amount of people complain to me that they used water (after hearing it from me) and now their diamond stones are all rusted. You would think that it would be obvious to just rinse and dry them, but it isn't for a lot of people and if I was making/selling the WE I would not want to have to deal with that with the customer service side. In general people are not that reasonable and the solution might be as simple as to just put in a small bottle of a solution which can be used to treat water as there are many of them which are available.

b) do you think it would be beneficial to have a certain course waterstone cut for the WEPS paddles that would be much more efficient of a cutter for the heavy re-profile work? I know there are shaptons and choseras out there already... any recommendations?

There are some nice coarse stones, but then you have issues of maintenance and the real big one is wear because if the stone becomes different in thickness it will change the angle and you have to account for that when you switch grits. I am not saying it is impossible but you would want to be very clear so as to avoid people complaining about issues which are caused by wear in the stone.
f) I find that it doesn't ever load up if I have a bowl of water in front of my weps and then just "paint" the stones w/ water every time I alternate... are you having a different experience?

No, but more than me have been using this, I just noted they were loaded when I took them out this time and just scrubbed them off.
g) If you send it to me I can cerakote it pink for you! ;) that should put ppl's mind at ease! seriously though, I don't think Clay had this in mind when he got it... I think people in New Mexico and ppl in Canada view the issue of guns slightly different :P

No doubt, it is really silly but that is a common reaction here, black knives are weapons, pink knives are cute. I even had a pink case made for a fixed blade specifically just to check that out and no one reacts harshly to it. This is extremely silly, but it happens.
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System Passaround 4 weeks 17 hours ago #17958

  • razoredgeknives
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thanks for the clarification.
CliffStamp wrote:

b) do you think it would be beneficial to have a certain course waterstone cut for the WEPS paddles that would be much more efficient of a cutter for the heavy re-profile work? I know there are shaptons and choseras out there already... any recommendations?

There are some nice coarse stones, but then you have issues of maintenance and the real big one is wear because if the stone becomes different in thickness it will change the angle and you have to account for that when you switch grits. I am not saying it is impossible but you would want to be very clear so as to avoid people complaining about issues which are caused by wear in the stone.

Yeah true. Well this would only be for certain customers (like me) that wanted to upgrade, it would not be for the general populace. I have a DMT duo sharp stone that I lap my water stones on, so I should be good there. Do you have any suggestions on quick cutting stones (that would be faster than the 100 diamond stones but not leave such deep scratches?)
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System Passaround 3 weeks 6 days ago #17968

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razoredgeknives wrote:
Do you have any suggestions on quick cutting stones (that would be faster than the 100 diamond stones but not leave such deep scratches?)

The cutting speed is directly related to the scratch depth, in general if the stone has a swarf then it is always smearing out these scratches in use (as the slurry is moving in a random direction).

The problem with coarse stones is one of balance. You have to make the stone so that it releases fresh abrasive just as it gets worn. If you make it too easy to release then you just end up seeing abrasive constantly flushed off the stone. if you make it too hard to release then the stone just wears smooth and you have to try to recut it which can only be done with a most coarse stone or some kind of dressing tool (like just cutting it with a ceramic saw).

I have used Nubatama stones which are very coarse and they just wear smooth, they won't release the abrasive. I have used King stones which release the abrasive very quickly and thus while they cut well you can literally see the hollow develop in them in use just like you can see rust form on L6 while you cut an onion. I currently use a SPS-II 240 which is very nice for hard to grind steels (HSS) but it is a waste on anything simpler because the abrasive will come off too quickly.

There are lots of coarse stones, here is a post from Stu, who while he sells stones, tends to give practical and not overly biased information : www.woodworkforums.com/156282-favourite-...-stones/#post1527017 .
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System Passaround 3 weeks 6 days ago #17972

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I just started another thread on this... stay tuned
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