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TOPIC: Why water stones?

Re: Why water stones? 1 year 7 months ago #8369

  • PhilipPasteur
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Thanks Tom.
Check out this link:

wickededgeusa.com/wiki/index.php?title=W...d_Edge_New_User_Info

Myself and several other compiled the links there and Curtis (thanks Curtis) organized them.

Some of the first ones I grabbed were to your series on the WEPS stones.

Maybe you would like to do something for the WIKI..
?
Phil
Phil

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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 7 months ago #8431

  • Geocyclist
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I have to say now after 3 knives with the Choseras that they are just awesome. The feel and feedback are amazing. If you like sharpening with the WE (because its calming or relaxing) the Choseras are twice as pleasurable. The polish and finish after 10k is so good you almost don't need stropping. I still get the remaining scratches a little smaller with stropping, but the edge and polish are already there. They are not too messy, I have a few drops of water on my WE but thats it. I let them drip after pulling them from the soak. I lay them stone side up, give a few drops from a squirt bottle, smooth the water over the stone to keep them wet during use. It is nothing close to the videos I've seen of a bench stone being used over a bucket filled with water where the guy is dipping his hand in water and splashing it on the stone. I also have a 1/4 sheet paper towel folded on each side of the vice to catch drips. I put rubber glove fingers over my arm joints (mainly to protect against diamond/steel dust) and this also helps.

I highly recommend them.

That being said they nearly double my sharpening time. I will use them on all my good pocket knives. For the beaters and kitchen knives I will probably buy the super fine ceramics to finish after the diamonds and stop there with a little stropping.
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 7 months ago #8432

  • mark76
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Geocyclist wrote:
I have to say now after 3 knives with the Choseras that they are just awesome. The feel and feedback are amazing. If you like sharpening with the WE (because its calming or relaxing) the Choseras are twice as pleasurable. The polish and finish after 10k is so good you almost don't need stropping. I still get the remaining scratches a little smaller with stropping, but the edge and polish are already there. They are not too messy, I have a few drops of water on my WE but thats it. I let them drip after pulling them from the soak. I lay them stone side up, give a few drops from a squirt bottle, smooth the water over the stone to keep them wet during use. It is nothing close to the videos I've seen of a bench stone being used over a bucket filled with water where the guy is dipping his hand in water and splashing it on the stone. I also have a 1/4 sheet paper towel folded on each side of the vice to catch drips. I put rubber glove fingers over my arm joints (mainly to protect against diamond/steel dust) and this also helps.

I highly recommend them.

Very nice description! I completely agree. I love my Choseras.
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 7 months ago #8433

  • KenBuzbee
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mark76 wrote:
Very nice description! I completely agree. I love my Choseras.

Agreed, and the Naniwa Superstones are fantastic as well.

Like Geo, I pick my battles (or rather, time spent ;) ) Kitchen knives get the micro ceramics, H1 -> varies but not polished, CPM-M4 & Super Blue will typically go to 12k. But yesterday I did my Caly 3.5 at 26° inclusive and left it at 2k just to see how it does. The 2k edge is really gorgeous (but I miss the "mirror" ;) )

They are messier and more bother than diamond plates and ceramics but the process and the results are superior in my experience.

Ken
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 7 months ago #8437

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Advice Please,
I already have the 5/10k. Stones. Will be adding some latter in the year, as these are a little $$$$. You guys have used them, which do you use the most? What would you advise as the best to add? I agree with all of you, they are great to work with!
- James
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 7 months ago #8438

  • PhilipPasteur
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JamesBell wrote:
Advice Please,
I already have the 5/10k. Stones. Will be adding some latter in the year, as these are a little $$$$. You guys have used them, which do you use the most? What would you advise as the best to add? I agree with all of you, they are great to work with!

James, much of the answer to that question depends on what you want to do. What results are you looking for.

Just to tell you what my choices are. I have the full set of Choseras as sold by WEPS (400, 600, 800, 1K, 2K, 3K, 5K, and 10K). I added a 5K and 15K Shapton set later, and somehow ended up with a set of 10K and 12K Naniwa Superstones. I think this was availability, I really wanted the 12K but couldn't get it, so got the 10k SS, then added the 12K when I could get it.

Do you have the 4 levels of the ceramic WEPS stones? I will get to why I ask in a bit.
I started out using all of my Diamonds through 1000 then going "back" to the 400 Choseras and through the entire 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2K, 3K, 5K and 10 K series. This leaves a very nice, alonost scratch free bevel and great edge. When looking for my ultimate mirror, I would add the 12K SS to the mix.

Tom might tell me I am crazy. He mentions that a few of the sones are alomst duplictes of each other with the difference being whether one is better for some harder steels whenle the other better for softer steels. I was simply aiming for a full scratch free highly polished edge... time and energy no object:cheer:

As many have already mentioned, this adds a bunch of time to finishing a blade. That and the fact I would sometimes use 6 levels of strops 6, 3, 1, 0.5, 0.25, 0.125, 0.050, and 0.025 micron.. on different media... and now you are talking about 3 hours plus for a knife. This is too much time to spend, though the process is fun, relaxing, and results pretty spectacular :)

I think one could easily go from the 200 grit diamonds to the 400 choseras and go through the entire Chosera progression to 10K and be done with it... and have pretty amazing results!!

So back to the Ceramics. More recently I have been going through the Diamonds to 1000, using the 4 cermic grits and adding the 2K, 3K, and 5K, 10K choseras, then stropping with 1 and .5 micron diamond spray on cow leather. It works very well and takes maybe an 1.5 hours off of the full progression listed above.

If you have the 4 levels of ceramics, I would consider the 2K/3K Choseras next. If you don't maybe the 800/1000 choseras, then at some point the 2K,3K set. The 1000 Chosera has been called the workhorse of the line. You can easily do touch ups with it fairly quickly, but it leaves a mirror edge, even at that grit, that is more impressive than the 4 cermic progression. It also removes the diamond scratches very effectively and quickly. For those that like tooth in their edge, they could likely just stop with the 1K and be very happy. If you go from the 1K to the 5K/10K you will still get a very nice finish to your bevel, but scratch removal will take a long time. You still will get a very nice edge. If a refined polished "edge of the edge" is what you want, you could increase your angle by half a degree or so for the 5K, 10K and save some time. Of course you could do the same with whatever you have now.

Anyway, after using these stones for quite awhile in different progressions, this is what I think your next move might be.

BTW, Ken, yes the waterstones take a bit more effort to use and add a very slight bit more mess to the process (when used correctly), unless I am just in a big hurry to finish a blade, this is not significant, for me anyway. As GEO said, people tend to get the wrong idea when this is mentioned... as in you need a stream of water running over the stones or something. This is just not the way it is. A few drops, with the idea of not ever having the stones drip, is all it takes.

Phil
Phil

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I miss you Buddy!
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 7 months ago #8440

  • KenBuzbee
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PhilipPasteur wrote:
I started out using all of my Diamonds through 1000 then going "back" to the 400 Choseras and through the entire 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2K, 3K, 5K and 10 K series. This leaves a very nice, alonost scratch free bevel and great edge. When looking for my ultimate mirror, I would add the 12K SS to the mix.

That's pretty much how I do it as well, Phil. Diamonds -> Chosera 400/600, 800/1k -> Superstone 2k/8k, 10k/12k

I won't break out the 10/12 unless I'm after a full mirror, 8k is plenty fine enough for most of my knives. And, you're right, unless I'm doing a full reprofile on something VERY hard,it runs around 3 hours.
PhilipPasteur wrote:
The 1000 Chosera has been called the workhorse of the line. You can easily do touch ups with it fairly quickly, but it leaves a mirror edge, even at that grit, that is more impressive than the 4 cermic progression. It also removes the diamond scratches very effectively and quickly. For those that like tooth in their edge, they could likely just stop with the 1K and be very happy.

The more I use them, I'm coming to the conclusion that day in, day out, the 1k Chosera and the 2k Aotoshi are my favorite two stones to end on. I'll bet (I should try it, then I'd KNOW ;) ) I could run through the ceramics and just finish up on those two stones with great results.

James, I completely support what Phil told you. My rec is to add a 1k (with whatever else you want, for me it would be that 2k super stone) Having those two stones on one handle would have been a great decision, though I like and use what I have.
PhilipPasteur wrote:
BTW, Ken, yes the waterstones take a bit more effort to use and add a very slight bit more mess to the process (when used correctly), unless I am just in a big hurry to finish a blade, this is not significant, for me anyway. As GEO said, people tend to get the wrong idea when this is mentioned... as in you need a stream of water running over the stones or something. This is just not the way it is. A few drops, with the idea of not ever having the stones drip, is all it takes.

Agreed, I didn't mean to overstate either the time or the mess, but the time is about doubled and I use the water stones in the kitchen instead of on the couch in the living room. So there is impact, but it's not life altering ;)

Just FYI, that Aotoshi takes more water than the Choseras, but it's still not a big deal.

Ken
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 7 months ago #8443

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JamesBell wrote:
...as these are a little $$$$...

... unless one were to enter Leo's Big Contest! :whistle: :woohoo:
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 7 months ago #8447

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And win...
Phil

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I miss you Buddy!
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Re: Why water stones? 1 year 7 months ago #8448

  • jendeindustries
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PhilipPasteur wrote:
JamesBell wrote:
Advice Please,
I already have the 5/10k. Stones. Will be adding some latter in the year, as these are a little $$$$. You guys have used them, which do you use the most? What would you advise as the best to add? I agree with all of you, they are great to work with!

James, much of the answer to that question depends on what you want to do. What results are you looking for.

Just to tell you what my choices are. I have the full set of Choseras as sold by WEPS (400, 600, 800, 1K, 2K, 3K, 5K, and 10K). I added a 5K and 15K Shapton set later, and somehow ended up with a set of 10K and 12K Naniwa Superstones. I think this was availability, I really wanted the 12K but couldn't get it, so got the 10k SS, then added the 12K when I could get it.

Do you have the 4 levels of the ceramic WEPS stones? I will get to why I ask in a bit.
I started out using all of my Diamonds through 1000 then going "back" to the 400 Choseras and through the entire 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2K, 3K, 5K and 10 K series. This leaves a very nice, alonost scratch free bevel and great edge. When looking for my ultimate mirror, I would add the 12K SS to the mix.

Tom might tell me I am crazy. He mentions that a few of the sones are alomst duplictes of each other with the difference being whether one is better for some harder steels whenle the other better for softer steels. I was simply aiming for a full scratch free highly polished edge... time and energy no object:cheer:

As many have already mentioned, this adds a bunch of time to finishing a blade. That and the fact I would sometimes use 6 levels of strops 6, 3, 1, 0.5, 0.25, 0.125, 0.050, and 0.025 micron.. on different media... and now you are talking about 3 hours plus for a knife. This is too much time to spend, though the process is fun, relaxing, and results pretty spectacular :)

I think one could easily go from the 200 grit diamonds to the 400 choseras and go through the entire Chosera progression to 10K and be done with it... and have pretty amazing results!!

So back to the Ceramics. More recently I have been going through the Diamonds to 1000, using the 4 cermic grits and adding the 2K, 3K, and 5K, 10K choseras, then stropping with 1 and .5 micron diamond spray on cow leather. It works very well and takes maybe an 1.5 hours off of the full progression listed above.

If you have the 4 levels of ceramics, I would consider the 2K/3K Choseras next. If you don't maybe the 800/1000 choseras, then at some point the 2K,3K set. The 1000 Chosera has been called the workhorse of the line. You can easily do touch ups with it fairly quickly, but it leaves a mirror edge, even at that grit, that is more impressive than the 4 cermic progression. It also removes the diamond scratches very effectively and quickly. For those that like tooth in their edge, they could likely just stop with the 1K and be very happy. If you go from the 1K to the 5K/10K you will still get a very nice finish to your bevel, but scratch removal will take a long time. You still will get a very nice edge. If a refined polished "edge of the edge" is what you want, you could increase your angle by half a degree or so for the 5K, 10K and save some time. Of course you could do the same with whatever you have now.

Anyway, after using these stones for quite awhile in different progressions, this is what I think your next move might be.

BTW, Ken, yes the waterstones take a bit more effort to use and add a very slight bit more mess to the process (when used correctly), unless I am just in a big hurry to finish a blade, this is not significant, for me anyway. As GEO said, people tend to get the wrong idea when this is mentioned... as in you need a stream of water running over the stones or something. This is just not the way it is. A few drops, with the idea of not ever having the stones drip, is all it takes.

Phil

Well Said, Phillip!

When going for that ultimate mirror, IMO, it's better not to skip, especially in the 800-1K-2K-3K-5K-10K. You can choose the 400 or 600 before the 800. You can even substitute the 400 or 600 for the 800 - but you do so at your own risk! :lol:
Tom Blodgett
Jende Industries, LLC

My Blog: jendeindustries.wordpress.com
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