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TOPIC: Standard arms

Re: Standard arms 1 year 7 months ago #7300

  • xuzme720
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I agree with you Chris, otherwise I wouldn't have done the mods myself or ordered the ball arms. But it's completely possible to get pretty fantastic edges with the stock arms, too. My arms with the play they had to begin with, had more accuracy than any of the other "guided" sharpeners I have, and I was able to get a decent edge with those systems. Not a wicked edge, but a functional one. Granted, I took a quantum leap in cost when I went to the WEPS, as I guess we all did. With that leap, I also got a system that was so much better than what I had, but not yet what it COULD be. Tighter tolerances on the universal joint arms would help make it what it should be out of the box and the upgrade to the ball arms will take it to the extreme limit or if it doesn't, you'll be able to see it from there...
I guess what I'm saying is that you're both right. The stock arms are functional but could be better, right out of the box. Tighter tolerances on the joints would help considerably.
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Re: Standard arms 1 year 7 months ago #7310

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xuzme720 wrote:
But it's completely possible to get pretty fantastic edges with the stock arms, too.

Of course, I spent roughly twenty years making a living with tools that were sharpened by me every day I used them.
I was also a hunter who supplemented my income by killing and skinning many animals.

My edge over everyone else was having the best tools and have them working to the best of their ability. ;)

edit - I feel like this is one of those "don't talk about the elephant in the room" threads. :S
Last Edit: 1 year 7 months ago by Billabong.
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Re: Standard arms 1 year 7 months ago #7321

  • cbwx34
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Billabong wrote:
I guess first we need to be allowed to call it a "problem"?
Billabong wrote:
edit - I feel like this is one of those "don't talk about the elephant in the room" threads. :S
wickededge wrote:
The reality is that there will always be room for improvement with the machine, just as you went on to explore even better ball joints and some modifications to the ergonomics which sound very interesting. I definitely listen to those ideas and keep an eye on making the sharpener the best I can. Sometimes the innovations take a while to roll out, from concept, through design and prototyping to actual production and then apparently recall :) since all the other parts of the business need attention too.

There is nothing wrong with discussing problems/issues/need for improvements/etc. with the Wicked Edge. Clay has demonstrated time and again that this is an open forum, and members are free to discuss both the positive and the negative. He pays attention to these threads and makes changes as appropriate. In fact, it's one of the reasons I'm here. So there's no need to continue acting like this topic is trying to be squashed.

Keep in mind though that what is brought up in a forum is only one part of the total picture. Clay has insight into other factors... total number of sales / complaints / returns / etc. that goes into the decision he makes.

I don't think there's anyone here who can say that this is a "problem" that Clay has decided to just ignore, is there? He already offers a solution to those that want it...
wickededge wrote:
I don't personally find it to be a problem but do recognize that others do, hence the option to send yours in for us to mod, if you're not satisfied with the arms as they are.

So, lets move on. There have been positive aspects to this thread, such as adding the option of the upgrade to the WE site, other aspects of sharpening that make an edge sharp, etc. And I'm sure there will be more. If you have complaints, constructive criticism, see a need for improvement, or are happy with the way things are, etc. by all means share. There is no effort here to discourage that, and I think it's important enough to say so.
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Re: Standard arms 1 year 7 months ago #7323

  • PhilipPasteur
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Hi Ted, and accept my welcome as well.

For me, my diamond hones had not settled in until I had done 10 to 15 knives. Even now, after a few hundred knives, they subtely change with use.

My thoughts on jdavis992 review. I have done reviews on things like stereo equipment in the past. When doing a review you try to find anything that is an observable difference in the equipment. I have measured things and shown that some aspect of the equipment did not measure as well as other equipment in its class. In most cases those aspects would not even be apparent to the end user. When doing such reviews you try to be a perfectionist. Reviews are not usually considered complete without something in the "cons" column. It is also worth noting that the original video where he compared the EP and WE, he did not really dwell on the arms. Apparently when he picked it, he was getting very good edges, or I have to assume he would have mentioned if it was a "problem" for him in getting good results. This should help in getting past your "BIG" concern. He did get good results! It was a few weeks I think, before he brought the joints up.
TedS wrote:
One BIG concern I have is if an experienced user like jdavis882 had a problem with the original arms, how is a rookie like me supposed to get great results.


All I can tell you is that I had my WEPS with the original unmodified joints for over a year and a half. A long time before anyone ever commented on the joints. I sharpened well over a few hundred knives, many for customers. They were very sharp, and no one complained. In fact they were ecstatic at the edge on their knives.

Unlike jdavis992, I found it easy to find and use a technique that mitigated the minimal amount of play in the system. Maybe this is an example of "ignorance is bliss". I just got the system and started sharpening without any preconceptions. It worked, fabulously, as far as I was concerned!

I came from sharpening with bench stones. Any play in the WEPS does not prevent angle control far better than what I could ever do by hand, and I get very sharp knives with my bench stones.

I promise you that you can get knives sharper than you will believe with your system as it is. If it is something that will be a constant worry for you, get a set of the arms with modded joints. They will make you feel better about things, but the difference will not be earth shattering in your results. I say this from direct experience. As I got such great results with the original arms, I don't consider this to be a "problem". I am results oriented. I agree that is is an area where improvement is possible and Clay recognized that and offers methods to get those improvements.

Play with your system, read what has been posted here about technique, sharpen some knives, and you WILL be getting extremely sharp blades.

I suggest that you don't agonize over the situation. Use your system and form your own opinions. Then make changes if you feel it is required.


Phil
TedS wrote:
cbwx34 wrote:
Welcome to the forum Ted!

Don't know if I have a problem yet because I don't know if diamonds are "broken in" after working on two
knives which are not as sharp as I expected. I also did not see anything in faq or wiki that provides an estimate of the number of strokes needed to complete the "break in" period.

One BIG concern I have is if an experienced user like jdavis882 had a problem with the original arms, how is a rookie like me supposed to get great results.

One of the main reasons I chose WE over Edgepro is jdavis992's honest evaluations with the WE shortcomings and improvements.
Phil

MAX 2001-2013
Hoping there is that bridge!
I miss you Buddy!
Last Edit: 1 year 7 months ago by PhilipPasteur.
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Re: Standard arms 1 year 7 months ago #7326

  • xuzme720
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PhilipPasteur wrote:
Hi Ted, and accept my welcome as well.

For me, my diamond hones had not settled in until I had done 10 to 15 knives. Even now, after a few hundred knives, they subtely change with use.

My thoughts on jdavis992 review (which was not done. I have done reviews on things like stereo equipment in the past. When doing a review you try to find anything that is an observable difference in the equipment. I have measured things and shown that some aspect of the equipment did not measure as well as other equipment in its class. In most cases those aspects would not even be apparent to the end user. When doing such reviews you try to be a perfectionist. Reviews are not usually considered complete without something in the "cons" column. It is also worth noting that the original vidoe where he compared the EP and WE, he did not really dwell on the arms. Apparently when he picked it, he was getting very good edges, or I have to assume he would have if it was a "problem" for him in getting good results. This should help in getting past your "BIG" concern. He did get good results!
TedS wrote:
One BIG concern I have is if an experienced user like jdavis882 had a problem with the original arms, how is a rookie like me supposed to get great results.


All I can tell you is that I had my WEPS with the original unmodified joints for over a year and a half. A long time before anyone ever commented on the joints. I sharpened well a few hundred knives, many for customers. They were very sharp, and no one complained. In fact they were ecstatic at the edge on their knives.

Unlike jdavis992, I found it easy to find and use a technique that mitigated the minimal amount of play in the system. Maybe this is an example of "ignorance is bliss". I just got the system and started sharpening without any preconceptions. It worked, fabulously, as far as I was concerned!

I came from sharpening with bench stones. Any play in the WEPS does not prevent angle control far better than what I could ever do by hand, and I get very sharp knives with my bench stones.

I promise you that you can get knives sharper than you will believe with your system as it is. If it is something that will be a constant worry for you, get a set of the arms with modded joints. They will make you feel better about things, but the difference will not be earth shattering in your results. I say this from direct experience. As I got such great results with the original arms, I don't consider this to be a "problem". I am results oriented. I agree that is is an area where improvement is possible and Clay recognized that and offers methods to get those improvements.

Play with your system, read what has been posted here about technique, sharpen some knives, and you WILL be getting extremely sharp blades.

I suggest that you don't agonize over the situation. Use your system and form your own opinions. Then make changes if you feel it is required.


Phil

This is what I was getting at. There is nothing "wrong" with the arms as they come out of the box, there is room for improving them.
Look at it this way. It's like buying a high performance car. It will go fast and handle really well. But how many drivers will leave it bone stock? Probably a majority. But then you'll have some that will want to squeeze out more performance. Swap out tires and rims, add a cold air intake or a chip. This would be analogous to the washer and screw mods. Then you have the few who would not be satisfied with that and want ALL the performance there is to offer. Now you're talking about shock tower braces, carbon fiber body panels for lightening, engine mods, nitrous systems, etc. on and on... Now you've met the group that wants/needs the ball joint upgrade.
Now, can 90% of the buyers can use the stock arms and get fantastic results. I know I did. for some of the rest of us, we can see room for improvement in play/slack reduction either through our own mods or having Clay handle it for us. If you think about it, most of the people on the forum that have wanted the mod, have done it themselves. That in itself should tell you those people, myself included, love to tinker.
Then you have the elite few/OCD tinkering crowd that need the ball joint arms, again I am in this group as well as a tinkerer, I'll leave the elite title to Phil and those that have earned it!

I'm not sure where Chris falls since he's gone and modified the ball arms...which if you put that in the car analogy, he's building one off race cars...:blink:
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Re: Standard arms 1 year 7 months ago #7331

  • Billabong
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xuzme720 wrote:
I'm not sure where Chris falls since he's gone and modified the ball arms...which if you put that in the car analogy, he's building one off race cars...:blink:

You guys are still going on about this? :unsure:

My ball joint upgrade takes five minutes and $20. (full retail price)

It came from a discussion here about keeping dust out of the current ball joints.
wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_k...rt=40&Itemid=63#6093
wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_k...=2&id=4809&Itemid=63

I was told by a bearing specialist that in his opinion, WE simply chose the cheaper option when selecting the ball joint.
Clay didn't get these made, he simply adapted them to fit the WEPS.

Perhaps I should start offering these for sale?
Can't see why people wouldn't want a race car for $20? ;)
Perhaps a video for YouTube.





Why is this such a big deal?
Nine months after the event, why not just improve something so all this noise goes away?
Not when people complain, do it before they buy it.
Last Edit: 1 year 7 months ago by Billabong. Reason: Clarity!
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Re: Standard arms 1 year 7 months ago #7332

  • xuzme720
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Billabong wrote:
Can't see why people wouldn't want a race car for $20? ;)
Perhaps a video for YouTube.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to cheapen what you were doing, just pointing out the levels people would go to/are going to, to suit their needs. It's become a very personal choice...

As far as I'm concerned I am putting the soapbox away now. (I have checked for and repaired any weak spots caused by jumping up and down on it)
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Re: Standard arms 1 year 7 months ago #7334

  • Billabong
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xuzme720 wrote:
Billabong wrote:
Can't see why people wouldn't want a race car for $20? ;)
Perhaps a video for YouTube.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to cheapen what you were doing, just pointing out the levels people would go to/are going to, to suit their needs. It's become a very personal choice...

As far as I'm concerned I am putting the soapbox away now. (I have checked for and repaired any weak spots caused by jumping up and down on it)

It's fine xuzme720, I thought it was a funny play on words. :cheer:

A bit of editing can change the original intention of a post.
It seems people want me to admit that I suffer from OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) and am somewhat different from a knife collector that strives for a perfect finish on a uber expensive knife.
Last Edit: 1 year 7 months ago by Billabong.
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Re: Standard arms 1 year 7 months ago #7335

  • wickededge
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Billabong wrote:
Why is this such a big deal?
Nine months after the event, why not just improve something so all this noise goes away?
Not when people complain, do it before they buy it.

If only it were so simple... :silly: We have to order our production runs more than a year out, so making changes is very slow and, in this last go round, there wasn't enough time to go through the process of design, sample, comment, sample, comment, sample, approval, production. That's why it will be the middle of next year before we can hope to have the stock WE100 models shipping with the new mods. The beauty of the Pro-Pack 2 parts is that they're being machined by our guys in VT and changes to the design can be fairly quick. The stock parts are extruded and any changes mean changes to the tooling, which takes a while to roll out.
--Clay Allison
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Re: Standard arms 1 year 7 months ago #7336

  • Billabong
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wickededge wrote:
If only it were so simple... :silly: We have to order our production runs more than a year out, so making changes is very slow and, in this last go round, there wasn't enough time to go through the process of design, sample, comment, sample, comment, sample, approval, production. That's why it will be the middle of next year before we can hope to have the stock WE100 models shipping with the new mods. The beauty of the Pro-Pack 2 parts is that they're being machined by our guys in VT and changes to the design can be fairly quick. The stock parts are extruded and any changes mean changes to the tooling, which takes a while to roll out.

Well I guess I was wrong thinking that if the WEPS is always on backorder it meant you exhausted the supply from nine months ago.

I can only ask questions and go by what I am told.
Last Edit: 1 year 7 months ago by Billabong.
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